Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

[fantastica]

^ it's sad to hear that in countries like Netherland (probably one of hte most tolerating, most liberal nations in the world) there's still gay bashing. Imagine if Chris comes out in his hometown in high school... no wonder he said "you'll get killed"...

[Guest]

I am hoping each new generations gets a little more lenient. I know Chris still gets a lot of hate, but he is also getting a lot of love and respect. We change the world one person at a time.

[arina]

I am always shocked that so many people are still so bigoted and full of prejudice. I've just read article about Kirk Cameron making some not very nice comments and many people on the internet prising him for being so courageous and brave for speaking something many people are thinking but not saying aloud...



And about Kurt: The characters I love in movies and tv the most aren't often those who I would be best friends with in real live. My favorite characters are most of the time complicated, often almost negative, not always very likeable...

I must say I really enjoy the superior season 1 and beginning of season 2 Kurt. And the superiority was one of the things which made that character so interesting for me. I loved his snarky bitchy comments, looks, the way he walked... he wasn't predictable, he had of course good heart but because of his many flaws things like " I love you more than I love being a star" had better impact. He didn't have to have always right, he didn't have to be always the one the most moral. he was strong and he was relatable. Also his storyline had good balance between drama and comedy. And because I am in minority and prefer Mercedes as best friends with Kurt and Kurt and Rachel as a frinemies, it was great for me too.

I am sorry the writing for him went down, he has many haters and his fans doesn't seem very enjoying his storlines as well... The writers should do something about it but I doubt it... They are decided to use him as their mouthepiece...

[Delight]

@ Glorfindel. I know that the Karofsky storyline in 'Heart' and 'On My Way' had hit a bit too close to home for you, as you've even talked about quitting Glee for good at one point. I am truly sorry to hear about what happened to your sister and your acquaintance. There are so many evil people in the world, who do evil things and who, unfortunately, get away with it. I guess having a TV show redeeming an evil character (Karofsky) and forcing the victim (Kurt) to be part of that redemption process was probably the last thing you want to see on your TV, and understandably so.

I have been very upset, yes, I still am. I'm sorry if I was such a downer for those who enjoy Kurt and Karofsky on screen together, but I had my reasons.

I'm guilty of being one of the people who would like to see Karofsky back on Glee, but that's mainly because of Chris's great acting chemistry with Max (Forgive me, but Chris+great acting moments is the OTP for me ). But you're welcomed to voice your misgivings about Karofsky here. I've noticed that it's a bit tricky to do that in the Glee forum, with Karofsky fans jumping down your throat and accusing you of being a Karofsky/Max hater. Those people don't know where you're coming from, and could only see you as someone who's stubbornly refusing to forgive the wrongs committed by Karofsky last season when all the episodes this season had portrayed him as someone who's trying to change, or had changed, for the better. How the Karofsky fans have viewed you may be similar to how we Kurtsies have viewed those people who refused to forgive Kurt for his old wrongdoings in Season 1 (e.g. the Rachel makeover, the schemes to get close to Finn etc). Except that it's extremely obvious that Kurt's bad behaviour was benign and almost harmless when compared to that of Karofsky's.

After all the damnation of Kurt for his Finn crush, I felt appaled that now we just have to forgive and forget Karofsky for tormenting Kurt, because he is such a poor guy and Max is so hot!
Such double standards.

I think at one point the overzealous Karofsky fans had even started comparing Karofsky's behaviour (the 'creepy crush' aspect) to be similar to that of Kurt's and CLoveGlee had eloquently made her thoughts on the ridiculousness of this comparison known.

I'm not sure if Max coming back on Glee had anything to do with macho gays wanting themselves represented on TV. But Glee seems inclined to bring in more and more kinds of gays on the show, so why not just reintroduce one who's already established and whose actor is known to be competent?

And yes, I find it quite worrisome that there are those in the gay community who are effeminophobic, who dislike Kurt for being a 'stereotype' and clamored for another character who they could identify with better. I can't understand why they can't recognize and be grateful for all the hard work Chris had done to make Kurt Hummel more than the usual campy, sassy gay in the background. (I find that this is something that still pains Chris to some degree, based on his Klaine skit poem in Dublin-- 'I swear to God I'm going to punch the next person who calls me a stereotype')

I'm not afraid that Dave Karofsky will hurt Kurt again. But I am afraid that RIB+ will hurt Kurt again, if they want Dave Karofsky (Max Adler) in Glee again.

I choose to remain more positive about the Karofsky situation. Given how they desperately wanted to redeem Karofsky on the show, I agree that it's highly unlikely that we'll see Karofsky doing anything directly to hurt Kurt again. But one way for Karofsky to be essentially a good guy and still cause Kurt pain would be for him to be somehow partly responsible for the breakup of Klaine (which, to me, is not that big a deal because I find that Klaine had overstayed its welcome).

I was even angry at Kurt for becoming so self-negligent, for taking Dave's hurt upon his shoulders, while having to carry so much himself already. It's all explainable in canon, this is who Kurt is, but it so pisses me off that Kurt suffers and suffers, and adds even more responsibility and hurt upon himself, even when it is wise not to.

I can see that Kurt choosing to be a martyr is not everyone's cup of tea. I don't know... I kinda respect that aspect of Kurt. He's probably the only Glee character who keeps his anguish hidden-- often to his own detriment-- and doesn't publicize his selfless actions (e.g. Kurt throwing the diva-off vs. Rachel withdrawing from the senior presidency campaign and encouraging people to vote for Kurt). To me, that gives the character more depth.

But they are not capable of doing it on purpose, if you know what I mean. The big strength of Kurt's story in 'Preggers' was that it was meant to be a small, sweet story full of hope and acceptance, and not that 'Very Important Message'. By thinking about it too much, they could not reproduce the genuineness that Kurt's storyline had become before they started thinking about it too much.
Did that make any sense?

Yup, it makes sense to me. It's Glee being too ham-fisted about sending out their big messages now and becoming too preachy and after school special-y.

Sometimes, a message is received more readily if the way it is delivered is more subtle. A week of songs about how it's okay to be gay would probably kill the message (ala "I kissed a girl and I like it~~~"). What had worked much better was a short, sweet and moving scene where we're shown a macho-looking dad not batting an eyelid and emphasizing that he still loves his effeminate son after his son decided to make his sexual orientation known. That's why a lot of people are grumbling that Kurt's 'coming out' was handled much better than Santana's; despite the fact that Santana had an entire episode dedicated to her coming out story, and also a multi-episode arc in the second half season 2 showcasing her dawning realization that she may be gay for loving Brittany.

[Glorfindel]

I'm guilty of being one of the people who would like to see Karofsky back on Glee, but that's mainly because of Chris's great acting chemistry with Max (Forgive me, but Chris+great acting moments is the OTP for me ). But you're welcomed to voice your misgivings about Karofsky here. I've noticed that it's a bit tricky to do that in the Glee forum, with Karofsky fans jumping down your throat and accusing you of being a Karofsky/Max hater. Those people don't know where you're coming from, and could only see you as someone who's stubbornly refusing to forgive the wrongs committed by Karofsky last season when all the episodes this season had portrayed him as someone who's trying to change, or had changed, for the better. How the Karofsky fans have viewed you may be similar to how we Kurtsies have viewed those people who refused to forgive Kurt for his old wrongdoings in Season 1 (e.g. the Rachel makeover, the schemes to get close to Finn etc). Except that it's extremely obvious that Kurt's bad behaviour was benign and almost harmless when compared to that of Karofsky's.
(---)
I think at one point the overzealous Karofsky fans had even started comparing Karofsky's behaviour (the 'creepy crush' aspect) to be similar to that of Kurt's [crush on Finn] and CLoveGlee had eloquently made her thoughts on the ridiculousness of this comparison known.

A lot of notorious Dave Karofsky stans want to forget everything that happened with the bullying. I have the feeling that some of them partly identify with Dave because they bullied themselves and now want to find absolution by seeing Dave as only a good person, who did nothing majorly wrong.
In a way they act a lot like Karofsky: thinking only from their own POV, and not thinking about that of others (Kurt and other Glee fans). To them Kurt is just a means to get Karofsky screentime, and a hindrance to get Karofsky redeemed on Glee (by reminding the GA why Karofsky was on Glee in the first place).

Although I must say that I also discussed with some nice Karofsky fans publicly on Glee Forum, and even exchanged very honest and heart warming PM's with 2 of them.
It must be frustrating to see their 'hero' disliked so much, even when there was plenty reason in canon to do so.
They mistook my resentment for the way they handled Kurt's POV as hate for Karofsky, which is not true. I hate what he's done to Kurt, the denial/dismissal of that in Glee, and the sexual innuendo created in 'Heart'.

I know I should feel sympathy for Dave, but I don't, because of his selfish and weak nature, that caused so much harm to Kurt. Let's say I feel sympathy for what happened to him, being outed and his mother rejecting him. But it's hard for me to warm up to weak and selfish people, who harm others because they do not take responsibility of themselves.
I think Karofsky can change for the better, but still has a long, long way to go.

Max Adler does nothing for me. I like his acting sometimes, but not all the time (although it's much better than DC's "acting"). But he seems like a nice guy.

As for the comparison with Kurt's crush on Finn:
Yes, Kurt wasn't forgiven for his wrongdoings, even when they were no worse or less than that of other characters in love in Glee. The core of the hatred for Kurt was that he was a gay guy crushing on a straight guy, using quite feminine techniques to get nearer to his love-interest. That is very essential in the underbelly feelings people had for condemning Kurt.
Now, with Karofsky, the 'wrongdoings' (to Kurt) were much worse, but they were much easier forgiven because damn, Max Adler is so hot and Kurt should be lucky to have him (instead of bland Blaine). Besides my personal upset of woobifying Karofsky's and his actions: that double standard pissed me off.

And the same double standard applies to Blaine. A lot of Kurtsies cannot forgive him for the car scene in TFT, even though Kurt forgave him in canon. Every little 'offense' Blaine has done to Kurt is magnified and brought up repeatedly, only because a lot of Kurtsies (and Pirates) do not want Blaine as Kurt's boyfriend.
But again: Karofsky's offences were much easier to forgive, because Max Adler is a better actor and hotter than DC. Oh, and off course: (masculine) boys will be boys, that's a good excuse too.
What if that happened to Kurt, or Chris? I don't side with Blaine or Darren often, but I cannot stand double standards.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This's a personal question but the gay guy you met is better today? Does he feel save at least? I'm asking you this because a gay guy was attacked in my city these week and his at the hospital

That's horrible to hear. I just wished it would stop.
What happened to my gay acquaintance happened many years ago, when we were young (he was in his early twenties). Physically he recovered, but he lost some of his 'geist', his bubbling energy. Kurt reminds me a lot of him, jumping up and down and squeeking when excited. He became more quiet and 'inwards' afterwards, which is logical I think, but sad nonetheless.

^ it's sad to hear that in countries like Netherland (probably one of hte most tolerating, most liberal nations in the world) there's still gay bashing. Imagine if Chris comes out in his hometown in high school... no wonder he said "you'll get killed"...

The worst part of this is that it happened between gays. My acquaintance did not get assaulted because he was simply gay (by intolerant straight people), but because he was the 'wrong' kind of gay, the effeminate kind. And it was done by other gay men who hate effeminate gays for being so 'loud' and proud, for being the wrong 'representative' of the gay community.
And Glee is starting to walk a fine line when it comes to the representation of the effeminate gay, not a silly stereotype, but a 3-dimensional character named Kurt Hummel.

In seasons 1 and 2 Kurt's effeminacy was celebrated. It was part of his strengths, not his weaknesses. Kurt used his 'female' Single Ladies routine for his 'male' football skills: he didn't need to muster blunt masculinity to kick that ball into the goal (or whatever it is called in football). In season 2 Kurt couldn't get a duet partner, so he became his own, with very clear signs of him blurring the lines of gender representation.
His effeminacy was part of Kurt, and although the most of his peers (Karofsky) still spit him out for it, he was accepted by the boys in ND despite of it, and even genuinely liked by the girls because of it.
His gender blurring was an asset to him and ND (e.g. whenever he sang as a countertenor, like 'Like a Prayer' and 'Pure Imagination').

In season 3 suddenly Kurt's effeminacy was no longer a strength, but a curse for Kurt. WSS, Sebastian, the election, Santana's comments, they were all aimed at his effeminacy. And even the strength of his gender diversity in seasons 1 and 2, which allowed Kurt to be with the boys and the girls in songs (even when he didn't sing he was still in the boys' numbers) is now a disadvantage. He isn't in the boys' numbers (except when Darren was on Broadway ), he isn't in the girls' numbers (TFTEISYF), he's nowhere, a unicorn at best.
His unicorn status could have been another acknowledgment of Kurt's uniqueness, as celebrated in seasons 1 and 2. But it was only used to set him apart from the others, to explain away why he's the one who's always overlooked.
The effeminaphobia/stereotyping ball was dropped after WSS, and all we got since then are putdowns on Kurt's effeminacy, and no purpose/statement and empowerment of Kurt's unicorn status. If anything, it brought him more isolation and hurt.

Now, with Blaine and Sebastian and Karofsky, Kurt is the only gay who can't pass and has to suck up all the disadvantages of simply being gay (Karofsky was able to 'hide' for years, because he could 'pass').
Blaine had his one line about the Sadie Hawkins Dance, but he's the acapella dreamboat everyone loves and he got the role of Tony. Sebastian is the unrebuted leader of the Warblers with a cocky attitude.

I'm confused about Karofsky's status as a gay representative on Glee. He is facing severe problems because of being a homosexual now, just as Kurt. So that should be something to 're-inforce' Kurt's story. Something to show that troubles of being gay do not only happen to 'femme' gays (and lesbians, but let's not go there ).
But, and here's a very mean snake under the grass: with all this build up of Karofsky's storyline, and diminishing Kurt's (bullying) storyline in the process, I have the feeling we are supposed to have more sympathy for Dave's ordeal exactly because he his the gay jock, not the 'femme'. His ordeal seems worse because he lost more: his masculine pecking order status.
Because Dave can 'pass', because he could mingle with the other jocks and now lost them, because he cannot fall back on friends with more understanding for effeminate and unable-to-hide-it gays (like the ND kids and the Warblers/Dalton),.... because Dave fell from so high to so low (popular jock to outcast) I feel manipulated in needing to pity him more than Kurt.

By not following up on all that Kurt went through, what it means to him emotionally (self-confidence, fear); by smuggling away the real facts that happened to him (woobifying Karofsky); by consistently writing Kurt's injustices off as colatoral damage in the life of a femme gay ("Usually this stuff rolls right off your back." - Mr. Schue in NBK); and by giving Kurt nothing in return, only being validated by his boyfriend and just straws to cling on to when it comes to his future, Glee is taking a dangerous route with effeminate gay representation.
Especially if you proudly promote and push forward the succesfull and more 'representable' gay at the same time (Blaine and Sebastian, and now Karofsky).


And I have no idea why this reply turned into a sermon.

[Glorfindel]

I do have something I'm curious about. Most of us seem, at least on some level, dissatisfied with Kurt's characterization this season. But my question is, what particular thing is it that we're all missing, or unhappy with?

Very good question.
My answer to your question you wrote down yourself (especially the bolded):

a Kurt who was allowed to make mistakes (the basement plan), or be in the wrong and acknowledged as in the wrong, a Kurt who'd lash out and get angry when HE was wronged or upset, a Kurt who still had enough ambition (though still not Rachel's cutthroat ambition levels) that he and Mercedes joined the Cheerios in order to finally have solos?
(---)
"I miss when Kurt was better balanced, more human with flaws that were still shown on screen, and had more agency."
(---)
I think what I'm unhappy about is the latter option, that the writers won't let Kurt be flawed and make mistakes, won't allow him to be in the wrong, won't let him react to certain situations with the anger and upset they deserve (like being given Officer Krupke), and won't let him fight for what he wants anymore (not a peep of complaint from Kurt about almost anything).

I just want Kurt to fight more. Not physically or dirty, like hitting Sebastian or scheming. But just fight for his rights, his future. Now he lets the others take the solos, swaying in the background, even when it's important for his future. And when he tries out for something (WSS, the election) he just takes the negative results, congratulating both his opponents (Blaine and Brittany), which is fine in itself, but he doesn't come up with an alternative plan, like he used to (the Cheerios, 'Le Jazz Hot', RiffRaff, the lonely heart's dinner at Breadstix). Let him lose Tony, but set up a production of 'Pip Pip Hooray', for example.
It looks like Kurt is losing his confidence. The confidence of getting out of Lima, the confidence in his own abilities. I want him to sometimes be selfish in a healthy way. Let him think of himself every once in a while, like he used to do in season 1, and part of season 2, but without trampling someone into the ground while doing so (like Rachel does).

Maybe the best example: Kurt left the footballteam to stay loyal to ND, a selfish act. But then Kurt took the slushy for Finn, and that was a selfless act. But it didn't stop him from lashing out to Finn, with the slushy still in his face, and calling Finn out on his cowardness. And then he needed the girls to clean him up and restore his fashionable diva-ish self, because he had surpressed his disgust for the slushy ruining his facial and clothes while he was talking to Finn.
I want that Kurt back.

In season 2, ever since Finn and Burt shut him down, he becomes the victim, more or less the "reactor", rather than a "proactor". It seems that he's more or less "coping", instead of "living".

^This.
In 'Duets' Kurt retaliates with 'Le Jazz Hot', but I feel his "proactor" role was over as soon as he put on the Dalton blazer. We only saw it back when he sang 'Blackbird', not dressed in his Dalton blazer.

[tanita_mors]

Looking at at least 10 long pages of all this Kurt/Dave discussion, I stand by my opinion that the suicide plot line was the worst possible thing they could do to this show and it's proving to be truth. The acting was great, but everything else sent a far to muddled impression to the audience. And that is BAD.

But, the fact is a lot of fans of poorly developed characters or just the ones who are peripheral to most plot-lines, build extensive head cannons that have nothing to do with the show and then get angry when not even a 10th of that imagination show on screen. I see a lot of it in Blaine fans, not just Dave ones. It where all their delusion that he is an interesting character comes from, because there is barely anything in canon to support that. They want "Kurt free" Blaine plotlines and when they get one with Finn they complain as to why Kurt didn't stand up for his BF. Dave fans latched Dave to every Kurt plot line this season, because he is the most clear connection to Dave in that narrative. Finally, when their campaigning payed off, they feel victorious and expect more.

The problem with Dave that is pissing me of the most isn't that they retconed him or wobified him, but the fact that they are glossing over his biggest infraction, the deal breaker for most of us, the death treat. I hate the fact that they are now pretending it never happened, the same way that Sebastian didn't almost blind Blaine in canon and Sue pushed a guy and tripped an old lady down a stairwell. It's a clear character trait, it's not something that can just be forgotten. And it's not something that a boy like Kurt would or should ever forgot or forgive.

I can honestly see the most of the things that happened on the show happen, even those that are unhealthy and we frown on them a lot, because life isn't sqicky clean and people don't always do the right or the sane thing. They are taken over by grief, by misplaced guilt, by anger and they do really stupid things - like Kurt believing it was his fault and inserting himself in Dave's otherwise unstable life again. Dave needs help, professional one, and any professional will realize right away that Dave needs to distance himself from Kurt and his obsession with him. Now, will this happen ? Probably not, because this is a tv show and one that isn't afraid to set up plot lines to get the scenes and material they want, no matter the logic of what they are doing.

[Guest]

OK - I'm gonna take a step out here and probably get bashed, but I did not take the death threat the way you did. I worked for years with high school kids and "I'd kill him if I could" was probably said more times than I care to count. Not meant in reality, just showing frustration in situations they did not know how to deal with or felt they had no agency. Their hormones are raging, their maturity has not caught up with their bodies, and everything is pretty much overly dramatic. Yes, a lot of these kids were bullies. I had kids locked in lockers, dumped in dumpsters, stuck in toilets - you name it. There were threats of all kinds, we took away guns and knives, dealt with rape in the bathrooms, screaming and kicking girl fights, gay bashing, more than I can ever tell you.

I saw Dave as one of these kids in a lot of mental pain, so use to hiding what he is that the threat of being outed was so scary he would do and say anything to avoid it. And I took his "death threat" as the scared kid he was. Bullies are usually cowards, and you can see with Dave that once he was bullied himself he fell apart.

And I know you think Kurt should stay far away from him, but Dave's fangs have been clipped and in many cases confrontation and acceptance on both sides can be beneficial (under supervision, naturally).

No, the scene was not well done, but most of their story lines are not. I understand this, like Santana's outing, was a trigger and I am not diminishing anyone's feeling of anger and rage. I am just saying you are expecting too much from a show that has shown you they do not handle things well.

[ColferGirl]

@Carousel - the only thing is, even if Karofsky didn't mean that death threat because he's, as you said, just a cowardly bully who said whatever he could, even empty words to scare Kurt into submission...

Kurt didn't know that. Kurt was terrified, and had been bullied and tormented by Dave for months. I'm absolutely sure that *Kurt* believed him, that Karofsky would really kill him, and that matters, even if Karofsky didn't actually mean it. Karofsky said it purposefully to hurt him, to intimidate him into silence, to scare him. Those words were still a weapon, even if Karofsky never made good on the threat, and they stabbed right through Kurt. They caused him stress and fear and emotional pain. Karofsky shouldn't be absolved of those words' affect on Kurt just because he "didn't mean it".

Although, don't get me wrong, I think Karofsky can be forgiven, and that he wants to change. I'm one of those who loves Kurt's compassion and capacity to forgive, and so I'm fine with him having extended that olive branch to Karofsky, glad even. I liked their storyline these past two episodes despite its flaws.

But I still think that death threat matters, too.

I can see that Kurt choosing to be a martyr is not everyone's cup of tea. I don't know... I kinda respect that aspect of Kurt. He's probably the only Glee character who keeps his anguish hidden-- often to his own detriment-- and doesn't publicize his selfless actions (e.g. Kurt throwing the diva-off vs. Rachel withdrawing from the senior presidency campaign and encouraging people to vote for Kurt). To me, that gives the character more depth.

You're not alone, I also respect and admire Kurt for his compassionate nature, and agree that his martyr-ish tendencies - or rather, as you said, his tendency to hide his own pain for the sake of others, and how he doesn't make a big deal out of his own selfless actions - is a deep layer to his character that I really love.

However, I do think it's possible for Kurt to take it too far, and I think that's what Marie and others are unhappy with. They believe he takes the martyr path way, way too often, and as such the pain and detriment to himself just keeps rising to levels that aren't good for Kurt, emotionally or psychologically, with no relief to balance that burden. I don't personally think Kurt is at that place yet, but I can see why others do think he's there, or are afraid that he may get there.

[tanita_mors]

I get where you are coming from Carousel. The words "I'm gonna kill you" gets thrown far to often these days and rarely with any intention. But this situation was specific in the way that Kurt had distanced himself from his fiends, he was alone, the bulling had intensified and Karofsky had started to fixate at him specifically. Kurt's patience was wearing thin and with Blaine's advice he reacted to bullying aggressively which ended in that hate kiss. Ca you imagine the confusion that was going through his head and a lot of other things. He then realizes that Dave doesn't want his help and won't come out but also he won't stop the bullying and now when Dave knows that Kurt won't tell, he has more power then ever. So again when Kurt mentions the kiss, Dave felt that fear again and says those words. While I don't think he would have actually tried to kill Kurt, the threat of exceeding physical violence and maybe even sexual one was there IMO and Kurt's fear was founded. I just wanted them to acknowledge how far Dave's fear and mania took him and what effect it had on Kurt. After all, it made him change schools and escape that environment. If you take that threat away, make's you wonder why he left if it all was so harmless.

[Guest]

Where I worked a threat like that would have been an instant change of school for the bully (and why the hell was Blaine telling him to face his bully when he himself had been gay bashed?) I am saying there is a POV for Dave. I am saying the story was handled poorly, as so many of them are on Glee. There was no adult intervention like there should have been. Kurt should have been much more vocal about the abuse he was handling - - so many "why didn't" and "what ifs." But don't expect Glee to go back and change it. And watching Glee for realism is a recipe for disaster because it ain't gonna happen.

The writers of Glee

[Glorfindel]

The severity of the death threat:
It wasn't so much the death threat itself that was the worst part of what Karofsky did to scare Kurt into silence and submission in season 2. It was the wink in the cafetaria and the cake-topper scene that sealed the deal.
A death threat uttered in rage, in the spur of the moment, can be a hollow threat, aka "I didn't mean it". But confirming it twice afterwards by deliberately doing something to remind and subdue the person you made the threat to..... that is taking it a step further.
And as Erin said: Kurt was already so beaten down (literally) by Karofsky, there was no way for him to know Karofsky didn't mean it. For him the death threat was very real.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kurt and being a martyr / strong or defeated?:
Kurt is still strong and I believe he hasn't caved in yet. But he's not his old feisty self anymore either. Part of that must be because he matured, but part of that must also be from constantly been beaten down, mostly mentally/emotionally.

It's kind of funny to discuss this, because I believe a big part of canon we base these conclusions on were not made to develop Kurt's character in that way at all.
Some of them were, like the audition for WSS, the election, Sebastian.

But a lot of the canon events that happened with Kurt were not meant for Kurt.
We're talking about him not getting solos in competition in ND, and not talking to Blaine, avoiding confrontations with him. And we're talking about Kurt taking the high road in 'Michael', and having Santana do the dirty work. And we're talking about Karofsky's story. All these things help us to come to certain conclusions about Kurt.

But, if we break them down, they are not about developing Kurt at all:
- Kurt not getting solos in competitions in ND = RIB+ preferring the iTunes sales singers to sing.
- Kurt not talking to Blaine and avoiding confrontations = too much backlash if perfect Klaine gets in to trouble and not wanting to put the focus on homosexual relationships on Glee.
- Kurt taking the high road in 'Michael' = pushing Santana in the foreground again and keeping Grant Gustin and the Warblers on the show, so Sebastian cannot be disabled/stopped before Regionals.
- Karofsky's suicide = in need to woobify Karofsky noone must remind Kurt of their violent history and that he does not have to feel guilty, and therefore Kurt can easily forgive Karofsky and become friends with him.

All ^these actions were done for the plotlines of other characters or the more general way they handle things in Glee. Kurt was just effected by it, but he was not the main character the development/storyline was meant for.
And yet, here we are, discussing his actions and reactions.
I doubt that RIB+ think this through as much as we do.

You can see Glee do that very often: Guest stars, the promotion of songs and actors on iTunes, Very Important Messages and tribute episodes: those are the driving forces behind Glee, and not the characters anymore. They shove the characters into the stories they create around all ^these things, and hopefully the cast members they use can stay mostly in their character's traits. The result is that sometimes it seems that characters get a personality transplant every other episode.
The characters are not the driving force of the storytelling anymore, and it shows.

[fantastica]

haha marie I actually agree w/ a lot of what you said, especially regarding the double standards when it comes to effeminency issues. I hate that too.

As you know we all judge things based on our own unique personal experiences so even when watching the same scenes we all have our own POV. As a person who grew up in a family in which things we speak when we are mad often dont have anything to do w/ our real intent, I find dave's death threat not as threatening, but still a bad move on the writer's end. Would you believe that years ago after I had a big fight w/ my teenage son I accidently saw him writing "I hate her so much I want to kill her" in his chat window to his friends. I was shocked but guess what, I dont believe for a second he would even lay a finger on me, and of course he never did. That's because I am his mom and I know him, and I personally had said horrible things to him when I was mad but we both know it was merely to let out the steam and we both love each other to death. When I saw the death threat scene I believed Dave was merely threatening him, in other words, bluffing. I don't believe he would actually do something like that - maybe because I don't see that real viciousness in Dave's eye. But Kurt believing him is also perfectly understandable. he doesnt' know Dave and if I were him i would be scared to death. The writers need to do something drastic to send Kurt to Dalton so they did this death threat thing. But they didn't address this afterwards, as if it never happened, and made Kurt's return and subsequently interaction w/ Dave somewhat unrealistic at least to some.

[tanita_mors]

That is the biggest problem. They do something stupid and very final, and when that doesn't fit in with their plans, it's like it never happened. It's undermining us as viewers.

But as I said before, I watch for entertainment and Chris Colfer and I generally don't allow dumb, incoherent or illogical plot lines deter me from viewing. Not to mention I far more enjoy the weird, deviant, strange and unhealthy storylines, because if I wanted fairy tales and PG-13 I'd watch Disney.

[fantastica]

But as I said before, I watch for entertainment and Chris Colfer and I generally don't allow dumb, incoherent or illogical plot lines deter me from viewing. Not to mention I far more enjoy the weird, deviant, strange and unhealthy storylines, because if I wanted fairy tales and PG-13 I'd watch Disney.

guess what? I like glee bettter when it goes really really wacky. It's like reading Jellyfish's satirical fanfic. the thing is this show isn't consistent when it comes to tone. either you go all cartoony, or serious. it wants to be cartoony when it wants to, but then gets ultra serious w/ PSAs. to me, the saving grace is when its PSAs actually does save lives. I am willing to sacrifice my enjoyment of a show if actual precious human lives are saved. when a life is lost, it's lost forever and nothing, not even million dollars, can bring it back. so to me it's worth it for hte mere fact that it's saving lives and doing some social good.

[Guest]

and while everyone was ranting and raving about how poorly OMW was written, The Trevor Project received many more times their usual number of phone calls from people requesting help - so we can say the ep did have a positive effect. Because of that, they tweeted their thanks to Max and Chris and to Fox. You can believe if it had had a hugely negative effect, we would have heard that as well, because they would not have wanted to be tied to it if it wasn't helpful.

[Jellyrolls]

At this point, I just take Glee for what it's worth. It's just a TV show--it's not reality. Storylines don't come with a bow and aren't perfect packages. TV characters get away with things that we would never get away with on TV. TV characters do things that we would never do in real life. TV characters react to situations in ways that we would never act in real life.

It's been a long time since I expected to see Glee to be perfect. I just take it as it comes. And I'll accept just about any story they throw my way as long as I get to see some great acting by Chris

[fantastica]

^ was glee ever "perfect"? it has always been a quirky show.

[Jellyrolls]

^ was glee ever "perfect"? it has always been a quirky show.

Yeah, you're right. It's never been perfect, except for Chris But then again, even Chris had a moment or two like the dreadful line he had in that dream girls song.

[fantastica]

^ mod! jelly is bashing Chris...

[Guest]

[quote="Jellyrolls" Yeah, you're right. It's never been perfect, except for Chris But then again, even Chris had a moment or two like the dreadful line he had in that dream girls song. [/quote]

But he had on that grand sequined jacket and looked so hot.

[Jellyrolls]

^ mod! jelly is bashing Chris...

The mods don't listen to the likes of you!

[fantastica]

^ 'cause the fox is guarding the hen house!

[Jellyrolls]

^ 'cause the fox is guarding the hen house!

I'm taking this to mean that you think I'm foxy.

[fantastica]

supermegafoxywhatever

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