Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

[Guest]

During Golden Goblet performance.

[Jellyrolls]

Is he singing to the guitar player???

I had not seen this one before.

These gifs made me realize that he rolled up the bottom of his jeans just like his boyfriend.

[Ireth]

While there have been a few things Kurt did that I didn't like this season, he's always behaved in character. He's changed, but that's because he's grown older (and more mature). He still feels 3 dimensional to me.

Lol Ivana, non-dimensional characters is so right for Tina and Blaine.

And why is Kurt rolling up his jeans? Blaine should be taking fashion advice from Kurt and not the other way round. Though Kurt does look good with rolled up jeans...

[Glorfindel]

RIB has always been inspired by the real actor in their writing of the characters, we know it's completely the case for Chris and Lea (roles especially written for them) but I think it's also true for the others, that's why they don't care a lot about acting skills, not super important if the actors are going to play a character close to them. The big difference between s1Kurt and s3Kurt is what Chris has publicly become in the meantime: icon and spokeperson for the LGBT rights and community. That's where Kurt is slowly heading to. It's a bad thing for Kurt as a fictional character but it will reinforce Chris's impact in his RL "role". In the last episode, Kurt talking to Karofsky could basically be a message of Chris for the Trevor project.

It wasn't Kurt in that hospital room, it was Chris Colfer. I already commented on this on another forum (TWoP). I'll copy and past it here:

I strongly believe that they denied Kurt all access to adults and friends in 'On My Way' because they wanted him in that hospital room with Karofsky alone. And I believe they didn't want Kurt there just for being Kurt, but for being Chris Colfer, the Golden Globe winner, voted amongst the Time 100 most influential people. They wanted to show Chris Colfer, in his example functioning, groundbreaking role of Kurt Hummel, talking to a bullied and troubled gay kid about the 'It Gets Better' message. They even used part of his inspiring Golden Globe speech to emphasize that.
This was not 'courageously-suffering-not-sure-if-I-get-into-NYADA-and-escape-Lima' 18 year old Kurt sitting with Karofsky. This was 'screw-them-I-got-out-of-Clovis-and-made-it-big-time' 21 year old Chris Colfer sitting there.
It was a strong message, but it practically destroyed Kurt Hummel's character in the process, because they did not have him in mind, nor the true character of Dave Karofsky as portrayed in canon in season 2 and 'Heart', when they contrived this storyline.

[tanita_mors]

Glee is just drowning in their attempts to send the right message, especially given that they succeed only half the time, if even that much. They warped characters to fit their plot lines instead of the plot lines fitting the characters. We want teen weeding. Well, the Rachel we know and love would have never said yes to Finn, and yet she did. The Kurt we know, would have never forgiven Dave everything he has done or let Sebastian of the hook so easily, and yet he did. Fin would have never again tried to get involved in someones sexuality problems after what happened with Kurt and Burt, and yet he did. Blaine, who changed his whole personality, his age, is deminour, just because they can and don't care that it makes them stupid and us for putting up with that crap. How about crazy Quinn, and her light speed turnaround. The list could go on and on,....

I want them to turn back into the F13 show that Glee was. Rude and unapologetic and entertaining. Stop being an after school special. Kids have parents to educate them about important things in life, they do not need you RIB. And the rest of us are all adults, and if we haven't learned all these things, we never will, with or without your help.

Honestly, the only thing that's keeping me interested in this crappy show is the talented cast (primarily Chris Colfer) and a song now and then.

[Ireth]

I agree with almost all of what you said, Ivana, but not about Kurt and Finn. Kurt has been shown to forgive quite easily (like Puck, and even Finn, used to bully him before joining Glee), and apologize/feel bad for things that weren't his fault (like Mercedes telling him she didn't know how to be around him anymore in Grilled Cheesus), and I think he truly believed that Karofsky was remorseful hence the forgiveness. That didn't stop him from being cautious around him or forgetting what he did. Karofsky was in a much weaker position than Kurt in On My Way, so Kurt could afford to be that kind and caring.

And I can see Finn doing something foolish and harmful (outing Santana), then trying to take responsibility for it because he feels guilty, albeit not going about it the best way.

[Glorfindel]

I partly agree with almost all of what you said, Ivana, but not about Kurt and Finn. Kurt has been shown to forgive quite easily (like Puck, and even Finn, used to bully him before joining Glee), and apologize/feel bad for things that weren't his fault (like Mercedes telling him she didn't know how to be around him anymore in Grilled Cheesus), and I think he truly believed that Karofsky was remorseful hence the forgiveness. That didn't stop him from being cautious around him or forgetting what he did. Karofsky was in a much weaker position than Kurt in On My Way, so Kurt could afford to be that kind and caring.

And I can see Finn doing something foolish and harmful (outing Santana), then trying to take responsibility for it because he feels guilty, albeit not going about it the best way.

I agree with you on Finn, he would do a foolish thing like devoting a week of songs to Santana, to make up for him outing her. He showed up in a red shower curtain to resque Kurt (from Karofsky!) after all.
But you forget that Finn didn't devote a week of songs to Santana because he felt guilty that he outed her and took responsibility for that.
He did it because he was afraid she'd kill herself, and she was his first. RIB+ never clearly stated that Finn felt sorry for outing her, or tried to amend his mistake by organizing the assignment of the week for her, or, as Claire would say: the 'Annual Glee Hug A Hurting Homosexual Hoedown'.
RIB+ did not write this story well, but I guess that was to be expected.


As for Kurt:
Kurt season 3 might be the consecrated kid who sacrificies his own soul to forgive others that hurt him. I don't think Kurt season 1 would have done it, nor early season 2 Kurt. But let's, for argument's sake, say that this is the way Kurt has progressed and has 'grown up' to be.

Then we come to the bolded:

That didn't stop him from being cautious around him or forgetting what he did. Karofsky was in a much weaker position than Kurt in On My Way, so Kurt could afford to be that kind and caring.

RIB+ let everyone, including Kurt, forget half of what Karofsky did: the death threat, the cake-topper, scaring Kurt away from his school and preventing him from coming back for half a year.
All Kurt listed in the Breadstix scene in 'Heart' was Karofsky shoving him into lockers, calling him horrible names and the, wait for it..... 'hate-kiss' (?!). Yeah, that kinda covers it, except it doesn't. And let's not forget "Dave's problems with Porcelain" and "...trying to hurt Kurt.".
So, within the Glee-universe Dave's actions were diminished to 'taking-it-out-on-Kurt-a-bit-because-Kurt-was-out-and-proud'. Kurt should take that as a compliment, really.
And it's very forgiveable, because Dave has gay pain, and gay pain on Glee is a free ticket to bully strong, heroic kids who can take it untill they flee away to another school.

Kurt was cautious at the Scandals bar, excellently played by Chris. Kurt was cautious at Breadstix, letting down Karofsky easy. Kurt had to be cautious in those scenes, because he was surprised and approached by Dave both times. And fortunately both times Kurt had the advantage of being in a public place: Dave could not harm him there.
But Kurt was absolutely not cautious when he went to visit Dave alone in the hospital. That should not have happened, and any adult would have told Kurt that.
Karofsky was in a weaker position in the hospital scene, but only on the surface and because RIB+ wanted him to be. If Dave had not seen the light, if he still wanted an obsessive hold on Kurt, he had very good ammunition in: Kurt feeling guilty about what happened to Dave, the unanswered phonecalls, the rejection at Breadstix, and Kurt visiting him alone, wanting to be friends.
Thank God for Kurt that Dave really was feeling remorse and didn't want to harm Kurt. For this could have played out in a very different way. It didn't happen, but how was Kurt to know?

I know it's just a stupid tv show and things happen the way RIB+ want them to happen. It's always easy to see things from hindsight, or to say that RIB+ would not do that to Kurt, or Karofsky.
But I hope none of my kids ever keeps from me a stupid action like Kurt did by going to that hospital alone, and that I will at least be available to go with them if they had talked to me about it instead of trying to stop a stupid wedding.


RIB+ wanted us to see that the bullying was not taken too far, that Dave showed remorse and is healing, that Kurt was save and a gay hero who forgives Karofsky, and they will be friends now. All is well that ends well, it gets better.

But what they actually showed in canon was not some 'normal' bullying because boys will be boys (and gay boys show admiration by shoving), but (sexual) harassment and serious intimidation/threats, that had a lot of repercussions for Kurt and his family,... plus a still (sexually) obsessed with Kurt unstable big guy who needs therapy, stat. And they showed not a hero and proud gay rolemodel when we saw Kurt, but a Kurt that walked around like a zombie all episode long because of all the conflicting emotions going round in his head, with noone helping him, and noone guiding him, taking it all on his shoulders, even the responsibility that should not have been his to begin with.

To come back to the bolded:
Kurt was not cautious, Dave was not weaker, and Kurt could not afford to be that kind and caring.

I'm not trying to take it out on you, @Ireth. I'm just very, very angry at RIB+, and your post gave me a starting point to vent.

I'm glad that the right message came across in the end, the message Chris wants out there, and people were really helped by it (reading news about the renewed interest in the Trevor Project and very busy suicide hotlines), but RIB+ messed this up, big time. They cannot be trusted with material like this, and I hope they will never try again.

[Delight]

Question. I know that some of the Glee episodes had often been described as 'after school specials' as a form of criticism. What does actually that mean?

It wasn't Kurt in that hospital room, it was Chris Colfer. I already commented on this on another forum (TWoP). I'll copy and past it here:

I strongly believe that they denied Kurt all access to adults and friends in 'On My Way' because they wanted him in that hospital room with Karofsky alone. And I believe they didn't want Kurt there just for being Kurt, but for being Chris Colfer, the Golden Globe winner, voted amongst the Time 100 most influential people. They wanted to show Chris Colfer, in his example functioning, groundbreaking role of Kurt Hummel, talking to a bullied and troubled gay kid about the 'It Gets Better' message. They even used part of his inspiring Golden Globe speech to emphasize that.
This was not 'courageously-suffering-not-sure-if-I-get-into-NYADA-and-escape-Lima' 18 year old Kurt sitting with Karofsky. This was 'screw-them-I-got-out-of-Clovis-and-made-it-big-time' 21 year old Chris Colfer sitting there.
It was a strong message, but it practically destroyed Kurt Hummel's character in the process, because they did not have him in mind, nor the true character of Dave Karofsky as portrayed in canon in season 2 and 'Heart', when they contrived this storyline.

It wouldn't be the first time the writers had done that to Chris. Anyone here still remembers that line Burt said to Kurt in IAU, about writing his own movies and plays? It felt a bit off because there hadn't been any indication on the show that Kurt was a closeted screenwriter (except for that throwaway line in the season 2 finale about his 'Pip pip hooray' musical). Chris, on the other hand...

However, I don't think it was truly Chris Colfer in that hospital scene either. I believe Chris still feels bitter about his own bullies, and I don't think he has quite forgiven them yet. I doubt he'd be as kind and forgiving as Kurt, and we all know that he is not Kurt. Chris had talked frankly about writing angry response letters to some of the bullies who tried to contact him after he became famous (which he never sent in the end), and also about how he would turn around and walk the other way if he ever encounter some of them in real life. I have to say, it was Chris's talk of 'don't listen to any of that forgive-and-forget crap' and 'you remember the stuff they did to you and you get them back' (and all of this was said with a smile on his face at the end of the interview so that you're never quite sure how serious he was about his answer) that made me really notice him in the first place. Any other more pretentious celebrity would go 'Oh, what has happened in the past doesn't matter anymore. I forgive all my tormentors yada yada yada' because that would be the politically correct answer; an answer that most celebrities think would earn them points with the public and fans. Chris is the rarest type of celebrity I've ever met, who placed more importance on being honest and true to himself than putting up an image which he thinks the public wants or expects of him.

[Jellyrolls]

Question. I know that some of the Glee episodes had often been described as 'after school specials' as a form of criticism. What does actually that mean?

Back when in the 1970's through 1990's, after school specials aired on American TV. It was a one hour television show that would often tackle a controversial or important issue in an hour. They would feature different characters in each episode, and they were almost always trying to teach you something. I recall one that had Val Kilmer playing a high school kid who was drinking and driving.

Here is a Wiki article about the ones on ABC

A lot of American actors appeared on these shows when they were young.

[Glorfindel]

However, I don't think it was truly Chris Colfer in that hospital scene either. I believe Chris still feels bitter about his own bullies, and I don't think he has quite forgiven them yet. I doubt he'd be as kind and forgiving as Kurt, and we all know that he is not Kurt.

I don't think it was 100% Chris in that scene. But it was not 100% Kurt either. It was the iconic gay posterboy that a combined Kurt and Chris have become.

I don't think Chris would forgive his bullies. But I also don't think that Chris saw the triggers that Karofsky as Kurt's former bully still has. I can't look into his mind of course, but I think Chris only wanted to bring the "It gets better" message across to troubled (gay) kids. He gets confronted with these heartbreaking stories every day. I don't think it blinded him completely, but I do think Chris is just happy to portray a gay guy who can be a friend and an example to someone who is so down that they want to kill themselves.
And Chris loves working with Max, that might have clouded things too.
I do not think that Chris wanted to portray a guy who can become a friend to a former bully, but just took that as part of the deal. He had to, actually, he's not his own boss.


I'm still struggling if Chris is okay with the glossing over of the bullying, or if he just takes it as collateral damage, or if he's just not aware of the implications of what they showed. It undermined and hollowed the whole, also very important, bullying arc of season 2. I don't know if Chris is aware of this, and it bothers me.

But then again: we don't know if or how much influence Chris had in this scenario. RIB+ could have just used Chris' Golden Globe speech and his status as Time 100 most influential person to put Glee on the map again of Very Important Holier than Holy tv series.
But honestly: I think Chris was mostly fine with it, or else he wouldn't have send that tweet praising Glee for dealing with sensitive issues.
I just hope there was more in the script and scenes got cut, because this is not a storyline I can praise or get behind.

[Ireth]

Great points, Marie. I guess for some scenes I've come up with my own headcanon for characters' motivations because the writing didn't give us believable/realistic reasons. (Finn and IKAG)

But I still stand by what I meant about Kurt and Karofsky, not what I said, because when I read back I realize it seems that I'm trying to rationalize Kurt's behaviour. I'm not, and I do think going like that without any adult knowledge was dangerous. But everything I said was meant to be what I feel was Kurt's thought process. And I think it's in character for S2 Kurt.

And there was some RIB's mouthpiece and some Chris in Kurt in that hospital scene, but I could still get him as being Kurt...

[Glorfindel]

I agree that it was Kurt, the way he is written now. Kurt would do that, I guess. He would go to that hospital to visit Karofsky. And since, according to RIB+, Karofsky is a mischievous kitty-cat now, and not the ferocious, all-consuming tiger he was in season 2, Kurt's decision would have been a good and noble one.

I can even imagine Kurt not talking to Blaine, Finn, Rachel, Burt and Carol, Will or Emma. Blaine wouldn't want him to go because he's his boyfriend and might be jealous, Kurt didn't want that. Finn and Rachel would advise against going to Karofsky, or they would go to an adult, Kurt didn't want that. Burt and Carol would be angry for the tuition money and the stress of last year; Will and Emma were too consumed with their own guilt feelings of not treating Karofsky better.
And Kurt is known for being used to doing it alone and keeping it all inside.
It's all plausible within canon.

But I just can't believe that they made sure that Kurt told Rachel's and Finn's parents about the wedding plans, but noone made sure that Kurt's parents knew about Karofsky.
The McKinley teachers should have put 2 and 2 together and know the underlying reason for Karofsky bullying Kurt. Blaine, who is the only one who knows about the kiss, should have taken his responsibility and talk to Burt, like he did in 'Sexy'. All Kurt friends could clearly see that Kurt was upset. Even Mercedes could have absolved Kurt of all blame or supported him more. But noone cared for Kurt. Not one damn person.
I hate RIB+ for leaving Kurt to rot and hurt alone in 'On My Way'. And they only did that to get posterboy Kurt/Chris in that hospital room alone to send the "It Gets Better" message.
That was failure #3.

Failure #1 was not acknowledging what glossing over the bullying would indicate, what it means to the bullying arc, and how it makes not only Karofsky look in hindsight, but Kurt too. If the bullying wasn't so bad, Kurt would not have had to flee McKinley. They deflated the bullying arc.
We were angry in season 2 that the bully mattered more than the victim. This time, in season 3, the victim mattered not at all anymore.

Failure #2 was how wrong and irresponsible it was to re-introduce the character of Dave Karofsky in a manner that was both romantic and creepy.
If they had been able to resist the temptation of teasing with a secret admirer for Kurt and a possible romantic Kurtofsky in 'Heart', all of this might have been better. Then Karofsky wouldn't have come off as a creepy stalker, as someone still obsessed with Kurt, and there would have been no guilt-tripping Kurt for not answering Dave's calls.
All they had to do is let Dave and Kurt bump into each other again at, e.g. Breadstix, and have a careful conversation, like they had at the Scandals bar. I agree they had to have a meeting prior to the suicide attempt, to remind the GA who the hell Karofsky was anyway.
But going down the sick sewer of RM's brain, and flirting with the possibility of a Kurtofsky romance damaged this storyline tremendously.

This all could have been avoided, having this storyline with Dave Karofsky even could have worked, if RIB+ had taken their responsibility, and had let honest storytelling prevail over melodramatic effects.

Ugh.

[Glorfindel]

Here's Jim Cantiello's recap of 'On My Way'. I'm not a fan of him, but he makes some valid points.

[Jellyrolls]

OK, here is my take on the hospital scene and the events leading up to it.

In my mind, Kurt had forgiven Dave for all that had happened in Prom Queen. He fully understood where Daves’s attacks came from. Dave clearly showed remorse for what he had done to Kurt, and Kurt showed compassion and support towards Dave and a willingness to help and accept him.

Kurt had enough of a comfort level with Karofsky that he was able to sit and have a conversation with him in the bar. Kurt didn’t try to get away from Dave, and he didn’t ask Karofsky to leave him alone. Once again, he showed compassion and support for Dave.

As for the events in heart, I don’t really consider those stalkerish. It was Dave’s misguided attempt to woo Kurt in hopes that Kurt would express that there could be a possibility for them to have a relationship. Remember Dave said that he had been wanting to call Kurt since they bumped into each other at Scandals, but he didn’t call Kurt so it wasn’t like he was actively pursuing Kurt for the three months between Scandals and Valentine’s Day. Dave’s actions were a misguided romantic gesture.

Once again, Kurt had enough of a comfort level with Dave to sit at a table and talk to him about Dave’s actions. Although Kurt seemed uncomfortable when Dave took his hand, he didn’t flinch away from it or pull his hand immediately--I thought Kurt left his hand there long enough to show it didn’t scare him, but pulled it away to show that he wasn’t comfortable with the physical contact. He spoke to Dave with compassion once again, and gently reminded Dave about why there wasn’t a possibility of them ever being anything more than friends because of Dave’s previous actions towards Kurt.

When Kurt rejected him, Dave didn’t push the issue, he didn’t pressure Kurt at all. Dave got up to leave, and it was Kurt, knowing Dave was upset, who once again showed compassion and told Dave he didn’t have to go. Kurt was willing to continue to discuss this with Dave, and help him. When Dave rushed out the door after the conversation with Nick, Kurt even called after him.

As for the phone calls, with the 20/20 hindsight of the suicide attempt, I don’t think the calls were stalkerish either. Dave was calling Kurt in desperation. Prior to the suicide attempt, the only people at McKinley we know for a fact who knew Dave was gay were Kurt, Blaine, and Santana. We don’t even know if his family knew prior to the suicide for certain. Dave was in desperate situation, and he was reaching out to the one person who knew his secret, and could understand what he was going through. His was calling for help, and the 9 phone calls were an attempt to reach out to someone who had displayed compassion and understanding towards him, and told him that he liked him as a friend.

Quite honestly, it was Kurt not answering Dave’s calls that was the mistake. Kurt left the door open for friendship, but then ignored Dave. Kurt told Dave that he liked him, but only as friends. Kurt told him that he didn’t have to leave when Dave was upset. Kurt spoke up with protective words when Nick confronted Dave, and called after Dave when he ran out upset. The way things were left in heart would have Dave thinking Kurt was a friend, so it would be natural for Dave to reach out to Kurt about what he was dealing with.

As for the guilt, that would be a natural response in this type of situation. Guilt is a funny thing, and we often feel it even when we’re not at all responsible. It would be a natural thing for Kurt to wonder if his rejection could have contributed to Dave’s suicide attempt. It would be natural for Kurt to wonder if he could have prevented it if he had just answered one of Dave’s calls. So, while it wasn’t Kurt’s fault, it also wasn’t unusual for Kurt to feel guilty about it. (Take it from me. I’m a Catholic--I know all about guilt. It took me years to stop feeling guilty about leaving to go to work without realizing my mom’s arm pain was the start of a stroke the ultimately took her life. I had asked her all the right questions, looked for all the warning signs of a stroke, and left home thinking the pain was just a result of her sleeping funny on it. It took me at least three years to realize that I had done everything I could in the situation in that moment, and nothing that I could have done differently to prevent her death).

As for the actual hospital room scene, I do not think Kurt put himself in a dangerous situation. He was in a semi-private area of a controlled environment. There were windows into the room, and people nearby. It wasn’t like he was meeting Dave in his house with no one around, or in a hotel room or an isolated location. It was a semi-private location in a public-place. We don’t know for a fact that Blaine, Burt, or anyone else didn’t know where he was, but at a least, he was a visitor signed into the hospital, so people knew he was there.

And again, Kurt’s actions dating prom queen was that he was comfortable to be around Dave in public locations. Kurt had stopped looking at Dave as a threat in Prom Queen. Kurt had forgiven Dave, but not forgotten about the actions. Kurt was cautious, but compassionate towards Dave.

I know that others may not agree with how I have interpreted this, but I just wanted to express why that scene didn’t bother me. I love that Kurt is so compassionate. I like that Kurt forgave Dave because I do think that forgiveness is part of healing. I can accept that Kurt’s compassionate nature would make him want to help Karofsky, and be open to a friendship. That’s who Kurt is.

[brisallie]

Here's Jim Cantiello's recap of 'On My Way'. I'm not a fan of him, but he makes some valid points.

Thanks Marie It makes laugh and yeah he has some valid points, now I've realized that On my way was like a pro-social episode lol


And Jelly ,I read your long testament and I'm agree with you :D.

[fantastica]

^ is he trying to create the 3D effect or something? the color offset makes my eyes hurt.

I recently read a very emotional post on a Chinese glee forum. the poster is a guy who was raised very tradiitonally and believed strongly that homosexuality was wrong, disgusting and socially devious. When he found out his best friend was gay, he couldn't accept it, so he verbally as well as physically bullied him and humiliated him publically, hoping to shock him back to normal. Then as a fan of American TV shows he got hooked on watching Glee. Inititally he didn't like Kurt, but by early S2 it was a different story. He said hte look of sadness and despair in Kurt's eyes when facing Karfosky was the same look that he saw in his gay friend's eyes (kudos to Chris for a great job). It made him realize what a horrible person he was and how sympathetic both Kurt and his friends are. BTW his friend finally couldn't take the bullying and cut his wrist. the poster found him unconsicious and carried him to the hospital. He didn't realize his constant bullying and humiliation of this kid had such a traumatic impact on him that he would take his own life. He said glee's Kurt had cured his homophobe now because it made him realize that gay people are just as normal as everyone else and it was extremely cruel to treat them like they are not. He said they are again best friends now but he still feel very guilty about that he did before.

Kids can be very cruel. I remember being taunted as a kid and I also remember myself doing some of the not very kind things to other people, things I later regreted very much. I don't think you should hold a youngster accountable for things he/she did before if he/she genuinely feel remorse and willing to change. That's why the juvenile court system seals an offender's criminal record so that he can go on a normal life as an adult, rather than being tagged as a criminal for the rest of his life. People make mistakes, and kids are especially so. That's part of the learning /growing process. the fact that Max Adler looked like 35 is not helping, but Dave as written was still a minor, and as aweful as he was, he's a changed person now. btw, the 9 unanswered calls doesn't appear "stalkish" to me at all. It sounds like he was desperate after being outted and needed someone he can trust to talk to. It just happened that Kurt intepreted his attempts as relentless pursuits so he didn't call back.

I think it's rather silly to suggest that Dave is inheritantly dangerous, like a psycho or something. nothing in hte show suggests that he is, or even was. He was just being mean when he bullied kurt and he had a lot of conflicted feelings that he didn't know how to deal with and he acted them out in rather weird way. If you notice many of hte strongest anti-gay voices later turned out to be gay themselves, and they are not mentally ill in anyway, just didn't know better when dealing w/ their own inner demons. Humans being are very complex animals. I remember thinking that if my husband ever cheated on me I would do x and y. when that actually happened I did something so dramatic I could write a best selling novel about it. I even surprised myself! I don't think we can rationalize every human behavior when we are not being in the situation ourselves, and still, everyone will react to the same situation differently. There's really no point of over-analyze what a fictional character could or should do. To me hte hospital scene looks reasonable and I am not bothered by it at all, but I can certainly understand that some people will be troubled by... anythign Dave is in.

[brisallie]

Fantastica, that story about the chinese guy is very inspirational and it makes weep; by other side it makes me feel proud that Kurt has touched a heart... so many hearts Smile BTW are you in the chinese forum?

[fantastica]

^ I never posted. I just go there to read (and steal cool avatars). yeah this story is very moving. It's been a week since I read it and it still stood out among all the posts I have read recently. I am glad kurt/chris is not only an inspiration to the bullied teens all over the world, but is instrumental in combatting homophobia and turning former bullies into more compassionate people. Glee maybe a badly written show as an artistic work, but it sure does a lot of good for the soceity. If it can even save one single life in real life, that's one precious human life saved, and that in itself is worth all the gold in this world.

[Shinra17]

These gifs made me realize that he rolled up the bottom of his jeans just like his boyfriend.

but unlike his gay boyfriend, the girls are superbly ignoring him, pfff...that girl who didn't even glance at him lol

While there have been a few things Kurt did that I didn't like this season, he's always behaved in character. He's changed, but that's because he's grown older (and more mature). He still feels 3 dimensional to me.

Lol Ivana, non-dimensional characters is so right for Tina and Blaine.

And why is Kurt rolling up his jeans? Blaine should be taking fashion advice from Kurt and not the other way round. Though Kurt does look good with rolled up jeans...

To me too. Whatever the writing is, the multi-dimensional aspect of a character is brought by all the nuances of the acting. Even when the writing makes a character pretty straight forward, an actor can retone it and Chris is super good in giving a lot of thoughts to his character, just by some minimal change in his facial expression. On the other hand, a character can be one or zero dimensional with a good SL if the actor plays it straight forwardly.

Glee is just drowning in their attempts to send the right message, especially given that they succeed only half the time, if even that much. They warped characters to fit their plot lines instead of the plot lines fitting the characters. We want teen weeding. Well, the Rachel we know and love would have never said yes to Finn, and yet she did. The Kurt we know, would have never forgiven Dave everything he has done or let Sebastian of the hook so easily, and yet he did. Fin would have never again tried to get involved in someones sexuality problems after what happened with Kurt and Burt, and yet he did. Blaine, who changed his whole personality, his age, is deminour, just because they can and don't care that it makes them stupid and us for putting up with that crap. How about crazy Quinn, and her light speed turnaround. The list could go on and on,....

I want them to turn back into the F13 show that Glee was. Rude and unapologetic and entertaining. Stop being an after school special. Kids have parents to educate them about important things in life, they do not need you RIB. And the rest of us are all adults, and if we haven't learned all these things, we never will, with or without your help.

Honestly, the only thing that's keeping me interested in this crappy show is the talented cast (primarily Chris Colfer) and a song now and then.

Teen suicides demonstrate that parents can fail, though...

As for Kurt:
Kurt season 3 might be the consecrated kid who sacrificies his own soul to forgive others that hurt him. I don't think Kurt season 1 would have done it, nor early season 2 Kurt. But let's, for argument's sake, say that this is the way Kurt has progressed and has 'grown up' to be.

Then we come to the bolded:

That didn't stop him from being cautious around him or forgetting what he did. Karofsky was in a much weaker position than Kurt in On My Way, so Kurt could afford to be that kind and caring.

RIB+ let everyone, including Kurt, forget half of what Karofsky did: the death threat, the cake-topper, scaring Kurt away from his school and preventing him from coming back for half a year.
All Kurt listed in the Breadstix scene in 'Heart' was Karofsky shoving him into lockers, calling him horrible names and the, wait for it..... 'hate-kiss' (?!). Yeah, that kinda covers it, except it doesn't. And let's not forget "Dave's problems with Porcelain" and "...trying to hurt Kurt.".
So, within the Glee-universe Dave's actions were diminished to 'taking-it-out-on-Kurt-a-bit-because-Kurt-was-out-and-proud'. Kurt should take that as a compliment, really.
And it's very forgiveable, because Dave has gay pain, and gay pain on Glee is a free ticket to bully strong, heroic kids who can take it untill they flee away to another school.

Kurt was cautious at the Scandals bar, excellently played by Chris. Kurt was cautious at Breadstix, letting down Karofsky easy. Kurt had to be cautious in those scenes, because he was surprised and approached by Dave both times. And fortunately both times Kurt had the advantage of being in a public place: Dave could not harm him there.
But Kurt was absolutely not cautious when he went to visit Dave alone in the hospital. That should not have happened, and any adult would have told Kurt that.
Karofsky was in a weaker position in the hospital scene, but only on the surface and because RIB+ wanted him to be. If Dave had not seen the light, if he still wanted an obsessive hold on Kurt, he had very good ammunition in: Kurt feeling guilty about what happened to Dave, the unanswered phonecalls, the rejection at Breadstix, and Kurt visiting him alone, wanting to be friends.
Thank God for Kurt that Dave really was feeling remorse and didn't want to harm Kurt. For this could have played out in a very different way. It didn't happen, but how was Kurt to know?

I know it's just a stupid tv show and things happen the way RIB+ want them to happen. It's always easy to see things from hindsight, or to say that RIB+ would not do that to Kurt, or Karofsky.
But I hope none of my kids ever keeps from me a stupid action like Kurt did by going to that hospital alone, and that I will at least be available to go with them if they had talked to me about it instead of trying to stop a stupid wedding.


RIB+ wanted us to see that the bullying was not taken too far, that Dave showed remorse and is healing, that Kurt was save and a gay hero who forgives Karofsky, and they will be friends now. All is well that ends well, it gets better.

But what they actually showed in canon was not some 'normal' bullying because boys will be boys (and gay boys show admiration by shoving), but (sexual) harassment and serious intimidation/threats, that had a lot of repercussions for Kurt and his family,... plus a still (sexually) obsessed with Kurt unstable big guy who needs therapy, stat. And they showed not a hero and proud gay rolemodel when we saw Kurt, but a Kurt that walked around like a zombie all episode long because of all the conflicting emotions going round in his head, with noone helping him, and noone guiding him, taking it all on his shoulders, even the responsibility that should not have been his to begin with.

To come back to the bolded:
Kurt was not cautious, Dave was not weaker, and Kurt could not afford to be that kind and caring.

I'm not trying to take it out on you, @Ireth. I'm just very, very angry at RIB+, and your post gave me a starting point to vent.

I'm glad that the right message came across in the end, the message Chris wants out there, and people were really helped by it (reading news about the renewed interest in the Trevor Project and very busy suicide hotlines), but RIB+ messed this up, big time. They cannot be trusted with material like this, and I hope they will never try again.

I see what you mean but I didn't feel this way while I was watching the episode. I didn't take the fact that Kurt didn't mention the death threat as an oversight. The tone of the voice Kurt chose to have in the breadstix scene was significant, for me: Kurt is no more blaming Karofsky for the past, he was gently trying to explain him why he couldn't return his feelings but was still, at the same time, helping Karofsky in his new attitude towards his self-acceptance. I can take the fact he didn't mention the death treat as a tactful move, to avoid to send Karofsky straight back to his most horrible past self.

Unlike you, I didn't feel Kurt cautious, whether it was at the scandal bar or at the breadstix scene. Actually, I had the opposite impression with Kurt's expression when he first recognized Karofsky at the bar. So, I don't feel Kurt had to be cautious to visit Karofsky at the hospital. Beside it would be a bit weird to me to be cautious about visiting someone who just tried to commit suicide, when this someone has already shown that he regretted his actions and has turned into a protector. I guess the main difference between us is that I believed the evolution of their relationship in PQ and you don't.

As for Kurt developping such a humanist and empathic personality, personally, why not. Actually, it's a real and significant growth for a personality to get out of a revengeful mindset and to look for the future and the solution for both of them rather than sticking to the past and deny any possibility of growth to the other part. Although it had a strong smell of a Glee-made PSA, I like the fact that they're also considering a future for the bully, it's not a victim/tormenter situation but a human/human situation.

Question. I know that some of the Glee episodes had often been described as 'after school specials' as a form of criticism. What does actually that mean?

Back when in the 1970's through 1990's, after school specials aired on American TV. It was a one hour television show that would often tackle a controversial or important issue in an hour. They would feature different characters in each episode, and they were almost always trying to teach you something. I recall one that had Val Kilmer playing a high school kid who was drinking and driving.

Here is a Wiki article about the ones on ABC

A lot of American actors appeared on these shows when they were young.

Thx. I figured out what it was supposed to be but I never knew what it was exactly.

OK, here is my take on the hospital scene and the events leading up to it.

I should have read your post before typing my reply to Marie's post lol, because basically I have the same POV.

[Shinra17]

the fact that Max Adler looked like 35 is not helping,...

lol that shade...
The story of this Chinese poster is beautiful and I would say not a common thing from my experience of Asian communities (SE Asia/not japan).

[brisallie]

These gifs made me realize that he rolled up the bottom of his jeans just like his boyfriend.

Jelly, Kurt is drinking kool aid too ¬¬ but on a positive side, he's wearing boots so he's not showing his ankles

PS: I don't think so Max Adler looks 35 , only 30 hahahha seriously he represents his real age which is...umm 25/26?

but unlike his gay boyfriend, the girls are superbly ignoring him, pfff...that girl who didn't even glance at him lol

That because in Glee he's supposed to be unattractive for girls and not enough manly - I have to remember you IAU?- so they have to be coherence with that, but in RL is different

[Glorfindel]

Of course, your POV and mileage may vary on Dave Karofsky. I think he is still very unstable and needs professional help. He may not beat up smaller gay kids anymore, but he's far from healed and healthy, imo.

I agree that Glee wants us to see this story their way. The reason why there is still so much doubt and innuendo is because the writing sucks majorly.
Everyone can have their own opinion on this, and most of them can be validated in canon, that's how muddled up this storyline is.
I must confess, I look at this from a very different view. Almost everything that happened in 'On My Way' happened to me or to people very close to me, and then some. As I said on GF: there have been Dave Karofskys, Kurt Hummels and Quinn Fabrays in my life. I was Kurt at that age, except for the gay part. Ryan Murphy may not believe it, but kids can get bullied for being 'proud' and just trying to be themselves, without needing to be gay to validate their pain.

I'm not against Kurt forgiving or helping Dave. Kurt is a brave and strong person, and Dave appears to be wanting to heal. But helping Dave should not be Kurt's task, there are some major complications.
Claire explains it perfectly in her episode recap.

When Kurt rejected him, Dave didn’t push the issue, he didn’t pressure Kurt at all. Dave got up to leave, and it was Kurt, knowing Dave was upset, who once again showed compassion and told Dave he didn’t have to go. Kurt was willing to continue to discuss this with Dave, and help him. When Dave rushed out the door after the conversation with Nick, Kurt even called after him.

When Nick 'caught' Kurt and Karofsky talking to one another, Kurt told him he and Karofsky were just old school mates who happened to bump into one another. Kurt went right back into the closet with Karofsky at that moment. And what did Karofsky do? Karofsky ran away.
That is the basis of a Kurtofsky 'friendship'. Kurt having to hide who he is whenever he's with Dave in public, and Dave running away at the first sight of trouble, leaving it up to Kurt to deal with the problem at hand.

As for the phone calls, with the 20/20 hindsight of the suicide attempt, I don’t think the calls were stalkerish either. Dave was calling Kurt in desperation. Prior to the suicide attempt, the only people at McKinley we know for a fact who knew Dave was gay were Kurt, Blaine, and Santana. We don’t even know if his family knew prior to the suicide for certain. Dave was in desperate situation, and he was reaching out to the one person who knew his secret, and could understand what he was going through. His was calling for help, and the 9 phone calls were an attempt to reach out to someone who had displayed compassion and understanding towards him, and told him that he liked him as a friend.

Quite honestly, it was Kurt not answering Dave’s calls that was the mistake. Kurt left the door open for friendship, but then ignored Dave. Kurt told Dave that he liked him, but only as friends. Kurt told him that he didn’t have to leave when Dave was upset. Kurt spoke up with protective words when Nick confronted Dave, and called after Dave when he ran out upset. The way things were left in heart would have Dave thinking Kurt was a friend, so it would be natural for Dave to reach out to Kurt about what he was dealing with.

No, no. How was Kurt to know those phonecalls were cries for help? All Kurt knew was that Dave told him he was improving ("For the first time in my life I'm trying to be honest about what I feel."..."You've helped me so much, Kurt."), that Dave even thought of coming out of the closet at school next year. He had no way of knowing that Dave was getting bullied and was suicidal the week after.
Yes, Kurt told Dave "I like you, but just as friends" at Breadstix, but Dave then immediately ran away, very upset, and that was before Nick confronted them. There was no way for Kurt to know that Dave would be okay with a mere friendship after that. Even if Kurt's offer for friendship was sincere (and I don't think it was), the way Dave got upset after Kurt's rejection would definitely give Kurt a very good reason to keep some distance between them the week after.
You know: some Kurtsies are very keen on blaming Blaine for staying in contact with Sebastian, taking his calls, but now Kurt was supposed to take the calls from his former bully who expressed he wanted a romantic relationship with him, despite the fact that he knows Kurt is with Blaine? That's a very double standard.
Kurt was in no way mistaken or to blame for not taking Dave's calls.

As for the actual hospital room scene, I do not think Kurt put himself in a dangerous situation. He was in a semi-private area of a controlled environment. There were windows into the room, and people nearby. It wasn’t like he was meeting Dave in his house with no one around, or in a hotel room or an isolated location. It was a semi-private location in a public-place. We don’t know for a fact that Blaine, Burt, or anyone else didn’t know where he was, but at a least, he was a visitor signed into the hospital, so people knew he was there.

I don't think that Kurt was in actual physical danger in the hospital scene, but mentally, yes he was. He offered to be Dave's crutch for as long as he needs him. Dave has him in his grip now. Every time Dave calls Kurt will need to answer. If he doesn't Dave might hurt himself and Kurt will be to blame.
Dave is still in love with Kurt, that is canon. Now he can spend all the time he wants with him.
Dave in canon is weak, selfish and quick to flare up in anger. This is not healthy for Kurt.
It's not even healthy for Dave. Every time he looks at Kurt he will see his mistakes, his 'sins'. He will also see a femme out and proud gay guy, that could be an example to him, but it is not what he wants to be right now: not out and proud, not gay, and certainly not femme.

And again, Kurt’s actions dating prom queen was that he was comfortable to be around Dave in public locations. Kurt had stopped looking at Dave as a threat in Prom Queen. Kurt had forgiven Dave, but not forgotten about the actions. Kurt was cautious, but compassionate towards Dave.

I know that others may not agree with how I have interpreted this, but I just wanted to express why that scene didn’t bother me. I love that Kurt is so compassionate. I like that Kurt forgave Dave because I do think that forgiveness is part of healing. I can accept that Kurt’s compassionate nature would make him want to help Karofsky, and be open to a friendship. That’s who Kurt is.

I like that Kurt is compassionate and forgiving too. And that he forgave Dave and wants to help him. This is not the problem.
The problem is that Kurt still is Dave's victim, and Dave is still Kurt's bully. This doesn't go away after forgiving. There is no way of forgetting, even if they wanted to.
And another problem is that Kurt should not be the one to help Dave. He can carefully be friends with him, but honestly: they don't have that much in common, besides being gay, and not even the same kind of gay (flaming femme<>closeted jock). What would they talk about, football, lady Gaga?
If anyone within ND could help Dave with a friendship it would be Santana. She has much more in common with Dave. They are both gay, they both took their frustration out on others, they both wanted to stay in the closet, they bearded for one another, and they both have a family member that rejected them after being outed.


Did anyone else notice how they made Dave smaller in all of this? In seasons 1 and 2 he was the big, tall bully. But now they tried to retcon that too.
First in 'Heart', where it felt like they had put Kurt on a chair booster. And in 'On My Way' the jocks were all very tall, most were taller than Dave. I remember they explicitly were casting a tall jock (Nick). And the bed in the hospital was ridiculously short for a guy of Dave's size.
Not so subtle, he Glee?

[fantastica]

It's perfect normal for people to come up w/ totally different views of the same scene, especially for a topic as contravertial as teen suicide.

First of all, kurt would not have known that dave's calls for for help. It's very clear that he thought dave was asking him out and so he refused to answer any of his calls. It was only later when he heard of dave's suicides that he realized that Dave was calling him for help, not hanging out romantically, thus he had this feeling of guilt.

Remember this is a tv show. It's not a documentary of real events. It doesn't matter how is the best person to help Dave in real life if he were a real person. It only matters who is the best character to get involved in dave's scene to deliver the PSA. max and chris had been at the forefront of this anti-bullying message since last season, and they have great acting chemistry, and their characters had the most "connetion" on screen. If I were the writer, i wouldn't have any doubt to bring the 2 together, not to mention to appease the Kurtofsky fans a bit. Remember this is just a tv show, and for a show like Glee who never takes itself seriously, it just cannot live up to the amount of scrutiny that many fans afford it. It will never make everyone happy. But consider the extremely sensitive topic of teen suicide being mentioned in a mostly silly satiracle comedy, I think it did a great job of dealing w/ this issue, with plenty of view points being expressed and enough positive message to keep it hopeful and not overly dark.

[Ireth]

As for the actual hospital room scene, I do not think Kurt put himself in a dangerous situation. He was in a semi-private area of a controlled environment. There were windows into the room, and people nearby. It wasn’t like he was meeting Dave in his house with no one around, or in a hotel room or an isolated location. It was a semi-private location in a public-place. We don’t know for a fact that Blaine, Burt, or anyone else didn’t know where he was, but at a least, he was a visitor signed into the hospital, so people knew he was there.

I don't think that Kurt was in actual physical danger in the hospital scene, but mentally, yes he was. He offered to be Dave's crutch for as long as he needs him. Dave has him in his grip now. Every time Dave calls Kurt will need to answer. If he doesn't Dave might hurt himself and Kurt will be to blame.
Dave is still in love with Kurt, that is canon. Now he can spend all the time he wants with him.
Dave in canon is weak, selfish and quick to flare up in anger. This is not healthy for Kurt.
It's not even healthy for Dave. Every time he looks at Kurt he will see his mistakes, his 'sins'. He will also see a femme out and proud gay guy, that could be an example to him, but it is not what he wants to be right now: not out and proud, not gay, and certainly not femme.

And again, Kurt’s actions dating prom queen was that he was comfortable to be around Dave in public locations. Kurt had stopped looking at Dave as a threat in Prom Queen. Kurt had forgiven Dave, but not forgotten about the actions. Kurt was cautious, but compassionate towards Dave.

I know that others may not agree with how I have interpreted this, but I just wanted to express why that scene didn’t bother me. I love that Kurt is so compassionate. I like that Kurt forgave Dave because I do think that forgiveness is part of healing. I can accept that Kurt’s compassionate nature would make him want to help Karofsky, and be open to a friendship. That’s who Kurt is.

I like that Kurt is compassionate and forgiving too. And that he forgave Dave and wants to help him. This is not the problem.
The problem is that Kurt still is Dave's victim, and Dave is still Kurt's bully. This doesn't go away after forgiving. There is no way of forgetting, even if they wanted to.
And another problem is that Kurt should not be the one to help Dave. He can carefully be friends with him, but honestly: they don't have that much in common, besides being gay, and not even the same kind of gay (flaming femme<>closeted jock). What would they talk about, football, lady Gaga?
If anyone within ND could help Dave with a friendship it would be Santana. She has much more in common with Dave. They are both gay, they both took their frustration out on others, they both wanted to stay in the closet, they bearded for one another, and they both have a family member that rejected them after being outed.


Did anyone else notice how they made Dave smaller in all of this? In seasons 1 and 2 he was the big, tall bully. But now they tried to retcon that too.
First in 'Heart', where it felt like they had put Kurt on a chair booster. And in 'On My Way' the jocks were all very tall, most were taller than Dave. I remember they explicitly were casting a tall jock (Nick). And the bed in the hospital was ridiculously short for a guy of Dave's size.
Not so subtle, he Glee?

I agree about how being a crutch for Karofsky is potentially dangerous for Kurt, but that's if no one knows what he's doing. I think it's equally likely that Kurt wouldn't confide in anyone or that Kurt told someone-maybe Blaine.

But I think Kurt knows what he's doing. I doubt he wants to form a close friendship with Karofsky, what with their past and their lack of common interests. I think he just wants to be a mentor for Karofsky. They need not even meet up in person for that.

And Santana may possibly be a better option, but this is a TV show and Chris and Max must have scenes together.

[Coolbeans3131]

OK, here is my take on the hospital scene and the events leading up to it.

snip

I know that others may not agree with how I have interpreted this, but I just wanted to express why that scene didn’t bother me. I love that Kurt is so compassionate. I like that Kurt forgave Dave because I do think that forgiveness is part of healing. I can accept that Kurt’s compassionate nature would make him want to help Karofsky, and be open to a friendship. That’s who Kurt is.

Just wanted to say I agree with this. I don't have a problem with Kurt befriending Dave. It's the kind of person Kurt is.

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