3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 3/4/2012, 11:00 am

fantastica wrote:Kurt did say in the breadstix that he wanted to be friend (or maybe he meant the most he could do was being a regular friend, instead of a romantic interest). He also said "I like you..." - although I hope he was only saying this to comfort Dave after hte rejection. Kurt liking Dave is a big stretch for me.
And then Kurt ignored nine calls. Clearly his offer of friendship was more a gentle way of rejecting Dave. Besides: he didn't offer Dave friendship. He just said: "I like you, but just as friends.", indicating that he did not like Dave as a love interest, but in fact the opposite. That is not an offer of friendship, that is just letting someone down easy.
Kurt didn't ignore those 9 calls because he was just too busy with other things and would get around to it later. He deliberately did not answer Dave's calls. He clearly did not want to be in contact with Dave again, at least not so soon after Dave declared he loved him.

Carousel wrote:Dave is coming off a 72 hour suicide watch and will be assigned counseling by the hospital - standard procedure. Suicide patients are in so much pain they are simply trying to stop it. They are not trying to punish anyone else, only relieve what they cannot live with. Yes, Kurt feels guilty for ignoring those cries for help, I imagine we all would. But Dave needs a friend and Kurt is WILLING to be that. Any psychiatrist will tell you that is what Dave needs most right now.
And what does Kurt need? Any pshychiatrist would tell Kurt to get the hell out of this situation, that that is what Kurt needs right now.
RIB+ only told this story from Karofsky's POV. Kurt's wellbeing was not important in this story at all, and it's bugging me to no end. He walked around very troubled and tormented, and noone cared. The only one that told Kurt he should not feel guilty was Karofsky, making him (Karofsky) the saviour and absolver of Kurt, turning the dynamic around, probably in an attempt to make this friendship more even.
What they showed was that it's apparently alright to rattle Kurt into feeling upset, guilty, in need of doing something about it, without any help whatsoever. The least they could have done is let someone, anyone but Karofsky support him in this ordeal. It would have changed nothing in the narrative if they had Burt, Will or Emma with him in that hospital room. For all I care they could have waited in the hall. But to see this happen to a 18-year old kid, when everyone is wallowing in regret and guilt that they neglected and failed Karofsky in the past, and everyone at the same time totally neglects and fails Kurt, again? This was only done so that Golden Globe winner Chris Colfer was in that hospital room, and for no other reason. They did not have Kurt's character and long-term story in mind when they wrote this episode.
They sacrificed Kurt's mental well-being and the bullying-arc for this purpose. But as long as Kurt cries pretty tears and doesn't try to kill himself, because he miraculously is so strong he can take everything they throw at him, it's alright, I guess?
Blaine gets to sing and talk about his frustration with the rock salt slushie, but Kurt is expected to wallow and endure everything in silence.

I'm sorry to say this, but Kurt is far from the hopeful rolemodel he used to be. If he is the character bullied and troubled gay kids should look up to and find hope in.....?
All he's got now is his family who is too busy trying to stop a stupid wedding while not hurting the feelings of Finn and Rachel, his boyfriend he never talks to and who is oblivious to everything, and an appr. 1 to 20 chance of getting into NYADA.
While still being the outcast and underdog in school, while not being able to pass and secure roles, while still being called names by his own ND mates, while still being called 'gay face' by his rival who apologized to his bf but not to him, while turning into a silently but couragously suffering taking-all-the-crap-but-go-ahead-and-walk-right-over-me pacifist, and while still being ignored in showchoir. And who gets severely hurt every other episode, while noone notices or cares. Some hopeful gay rolmodel for teenage kids.

This season (and last season) we've seen bad things happen to Kurt, and they never allowed him to get any agency in it, no retaliation, no success, no triumph, no payback, nothing to level out the bad. They don't even show him attempting to improve, like being able to pass while acting, or protesting against not getting solos (something others did who had less future interest in getting solos).
The message is: life sucks and as a gay kid with a gay face you just take it. The ones who are saying that Kurt is a whining brat who blames the world for everything while doing nothing about it are getting a point. The only time Kurt was allowed to stand up for himself was with Sebastian, and they've even taken that away from him in 'Michael'.
All this season Kurt did nothing for himself except suffer silently or whine about NYADA, but now he's willing to fly to the rescue of Karofsky, because he is hurting worse?

And the lesson we get out of this is that Kurt is an exceptional noble, strong and couragous young man, who is willing to help his former bully, but not himself while life keeps kicking him in the balls. Kurt's best character trait right now is that he doesn't roll over and die, like Karofsky was willing to do.
RIB+ do not know what they are doing. They are destroying Kurt.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Guest on 3/4/2012, 1:44 pm

^^WOW!! I saw a kid who understands that Dave was in pain and tried to take the ultimate step, that if he had succeeded a human life would have been lost and Kurt did not want to see that, or have Dave attempt it again. He now realizes Dave was reaching out to him for help, because Dave felt he had no one else to turn to. I see Dave as a scared teen who doesn't know how to handle himself and is now on the road to acceptance. Kurt will help him because that is how Kurt is and, trust me on this, it will be cathartic for both of them. Kurt will not be the only one, because he will pull others into helping.

NO, Kurt has not had a lot of agency this season, but I don't see that any of them have. And he will always be inspirational to me because, no matter what the odds, he refuses to give in.


And do you think Santana's story was any better written?

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  CloveGlee on 3/4/2012, 3:34 pm

Carousel wrote:^^WOW!! I saw a kid who understands that Dave was in pain and tried to take the ultimate step, that if he had succeeded a human life would have been lost and Kurt did not want to see that, or have Dave attempt it again. He now realizes Dave was reaching out to him for help, because Dave felt he had no one else to turn to. I see Dave as a scared teen who doesn't know how to handle himself and is now on the road to acceptance. Kurt will help him because that is how Kurt is and, trust me on this, it will be cathartic for both of them. Kurt will not be the only one, because he will pull others into helping.

NO, Kurt has not had a lot of agency this season, but I don't see that any of them have. And he will always be inspirational to me because, no matter what the odds, he refuses to give in.


And do you think Santana's story was any better written?

Oh, no. It was very much worse. It trivialized her. Actually, Glee just does not tackle any sensitive issues as well as it wants to. If you think I was hard on "On My Way", remember what I did to "Kissed a Girl." "On My Way" annoyed me a little bit on its way to some very sensitive acting, and it was at least trying to be deep and meaningful. "Kissed a Girl" was really offensive.

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  fantastica on 3/4/2012, 4:01 pm

^ IKAG is probably the worst episode of hte season. the writing is amaturish. Naya needs to date someone who can write better for her (that, probably means a woman)
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 3/4/2012, 6:56 pm

Carousel wrote:And do you think Santana's story was any better written?
Santana's story is horrible, I agree. IKAG was the worst Glee episode ever, imo.
But at least Santana had the whole glee club and the teachers (and Burt!) rallied behind her, no matter how awkward and wrong that week assignment was. And she had the Troubletones and now their horrible deal with ND. Plus she is still the HBIC of McKinley High.
Glee is just very badly written. A lot of characters suffer from that, not just Kurt. Will is in canon a bad teacher now, Finn was destroyed multiple times, and Rachel is now the most annoying and whiny person ever who is losing sight of all her zeal and goals. Puck lost his daughter (again) and the next moment he's dancing and splashing around laughing in a pool.
It's horrible all around. That does not mean that RIB+ get excused for writing Kurt very badly.

There is basically nothing wrong with canon Kurt. I love him dearly, and caring, goodhearted, taking-the-high-road people do excist. He is an inspirational kid, and everything he's done so far has been in character. But there has to be an boiling point, even for Kurt. Come on, he should fight for solos, he should call Mr. Schue out, he should have arguments with Blaine, he should take acting lessons, start that PFLAG, do something. He's only fighting with Sebastian, and that's over Blaine and ND, not for himself.
And now he's even helping Karofsky get better, while partly denying his own feelings in that matter (yes, I believe in the guilt-tripping, RIB+ put those 9 phonecalls in there for a reason). But Kurt is still not standing up for himself.
Kurt does nothing but let it all wash over him and survive right now, taking the high road. That may be inspirational, but it's not the way to accomplish anything in life, and for Kurt to get out of that stinking town of Lima. Kurt's not fighting anymore. Where is the kid that sang a duet with himself, getting the cheerios to help, when noone would duet with him?
And when Kurt finally gets the chance to make a difference, because Santana helped him and not because he did something himself, mind you, he throws the tape back to Sebastian.

I also feel that Kurt has taken more shit than can be compensated, even if he gets into NYADA. Kurt gets the hurt, but not the satisfaction of getting rewarded, or at least getting the bad balanced out with some good. No other character gets less vindication than Kurt, save for Quinn. Look at last year when he said "Kurt Hummel's had a pretty good year." No, he hadn't. RIB gave him a boyfriend and a plane-ride to New York City and that was it. In canon Kurt said that it was okay, but it really was not.
And they are doing the same thing now. Kurt lost Tony, he lost the election, no ND solo, Sebastian in his face, Blaine groping him, a very thin NYADA letter, being the intended receiver of a rock salt slushie by his former schoolmates, the unpleasant surprise of his secret admirer turning out to be his former bully, the guilt-tripping when Dave tried to kill himself.
The only compensation for this has been that one scene with Burt. Apart from the NYADA letter and that private moment of glory with Burt, Kurt got nothing yet in season 3. That blissful state lasted 30 seconds untill Rachel started crying. And it doesn't even mean Kurt will get into NYADA. And if he gets into NYADA it will probably cost him his boyfriend, who he, in canon, loves very much.

Reducing the amount of the harassment Dave put Kurt through in season 2, reducing the level of how Kurt was a victim back then, is wrong too. I've already read comments that say that Kurt was whining and crying too much and ran away to Dalton at the first sight of trouble, that Karofsky wasn't that dangerous, and that Kurt was a coward.
All the other kids got bullied, but it only mattered when 'the gay kid' got bullied, in their opinion. The argument against that was that the way Kurt was bullied had a very dangerous sexual undercurrent, something that never happened to the other kids.
But now, by woobifying Karofsky, Kurt's ordeal was almost brought back to that same level of bullying, and it damaged the bullying arc even more than Santana being the one to bring Kurt back because she wanted to be Prom Queen, and Karofsky becoming the bully who mattered more than the victim, because he was a closeted gay. Because closeted gay pain gives you a pass to do horrible things, just look at Santana.


These things all seem to be unrelated to one another, and I think RIB+ doesn't even realize how every little single thing they are writing is undermining Kurt as an inspirational character. What Kurt is going through is exhausting to watch, let alone identify with.
We Kurtsies are getting frustrated with no solos for Kurt and no recognition of a desireable Kurt, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. How must these kids feel who have been identifying themselves with Kurt, when there is no relief whatever for him, except dancing with his bf (while not singing) every now and then?

That's what I mean by destroying Kurt's character. Kurt himself can be as inspirational as Jesus Christ himself (and he's starting to get there, imo), but the message RIB+ is sending, is that no matter how good you are, your life will still keep throwing shit at you more than at other people. And why? Solely because you're the wrong kind of gay, the non-passing gay-face kind of gay. That's the main reason they have given in canon and it sucks big time.
And standing right next to Kurt is the succesful gay who can pass and who gets all the love and solos, which is making things worse.

RIB+ are taking this too far, and I don't think they are doing this on purpose to give Kurt an even bigger triumph at the end of the tunnel.
They are writing from plot to plot, episode to episode: let Blaine sing, let Finchel kiss, let Sue deliver one-liners, throw a bone at the lesbians, and pretend the minor background characters matter too every now and then. And add something more to the pile of shit for Kurt, because that is the go-to modus for Kurt: give him some angst because Chris Colfer can deliver the drama.
They need to stop.

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Guest on 3/4/2012, 7:11 pm

Unfortunately, it is NOT going to stop. It is the way they chose to write the character and the show. What was once a great program started to disintegrate once they started pandering to fans and the story lines they wanted. Everything then became disjointed. Now you have Ryan off doing other shows (this next season it will be AHS and the gay couple show) and movies and I just do not think his interest is there for Glee. They will get another season out of it, but I imagine it will again be written poorly, make what money they can, then move on to the next thing on their agenda. It is what Ryan does.

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  fantastica on 3/4/2012, 7:17 pm

Glorfindel wrote:
Carousel wrote:And do you think Santana's story was any better written?
They are writing from plot to plot, episode to episode: let Blaine sing, let Finchel kiss, let Sue deliver one-liners, throw a bone at the lesbians, and pretend the minor background characters matter too every now and then. And add something more to the pile of shit for Kurt, because that is the go-to modus for Kurt: give him some angst because Chris Colfer can deliver the drama.
They need to stop.
you just describe the whole show, and they can't stop. otherwise it would be a different show. glee is what it is. it's not high art. it's not realism. it's in a league of its own.

remember that many of us are way out of the show's target demographics which means it's not really suitable for our tastes. but one way or the other we are stuck here because our love of chris and his character Kurt. We wish the show is written differently, something that's more suitable for our mature taste, but it's not, and it never will be. We will just have to deal w/ it.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Jellyrolls on 3/4/2012, 10:15 pm

Glorfindel wrote:
That's what I mean by destroying Kurt's character. Kurt himself can be as inspirational as Jesus Christ himself (and he's starting to get there, imo), but the message RIB+ is sending, is that no matter how good you are, your life will still keep throwing shit at you more than at other people. And why? Solely because you're the wrong kind of gay, the non-passing gay-face kind of gay. That's the main reason they have given in canon and it sucks big time.

The bolded is not the message the RIB is sending. Maybe it's different in the Netherlands, but in the United States, the bolded is the reality. Unfortunately, LGBT kids in high school and college are far more likely to face harrassment in school than straight kids, especially kids like Kurt. LGBT kids are far more likely to face teasing and taunting at school on a daily basis. And LGBT kids are far more likely to attempt suicide than straight kids. The Trevor Project has a lot of information and statistics on this on their website (unfortunately, their website is down as I'm writing this, so I can't link directly to the information that you can find it there, but it's there if you want to look at it).

The message that RIB is trying to send through Kurt is the same message that the Trevor Project is sending out--it gets better. What is so inspiring about Kurt is not the accomplishments, but what he has to overcome to get them. Kurt has been through the wringer on the show the past season and a half. What makes him inspirational, especially to the LGBT kids, is that despite all that he has been through, Kurt stays strong and confident. Kurt doesn't hide who he is or try to change who he is. He overcomes his adversity, and learns from it. Like Kurt said to Dave in On My Way, sometimes life just sucks, but you get through it. The message that they are sending to these kids is stay strong, be confident, be true to yourself--things may be hard, but it will get better. And things have gotten better for Kurt in the past year.

Kurt is luckier than a lot of LGBT because he is the support of a loving father who accepts him and support him. He has a stepmother who loves and accepts him. And he has a lot of friends who love and support him--Friends who stood up for him against his bully.

Chris himself has lived through the harrassment and teasing that a lot of LGBT kids have gone through. What if Chris was a different type of person and let that harrassment and teasing get to him? He probably wouldn't be on Glee right now if he wasn't a strong and confident young man who found a way to get through that. Chris is the poster boy for it gets better. You just have to find a way to get through it, and you lean on those people who love and support you.

And from the way Chris talks about his family, it's pretty clear that he was blessed with a wonderful family who loves, supports, encourages, and accepts him. I've been thinking a lot about his role in 8 last night, and I think one of the reasons why he was so compelling in that is that he fully understands that he is one of the lucky ones--if he was a different type of person, or if he was born into a different family, his life could have been like Ryan Kendall's or worse.

And Kurt is not a coward for switching schools to get away from his bully. Removing yourself from an environment where you are repeatedly harrassed and attacked when the authorities don't do enough to solve the problem isn't cowardly--it's smart. I sat 30 feet from Chris in his direct line of vision when he revealed that he was homeschooed for two years after his bullies got too intense. Would you call Chris a coward for doing that? I wouldn't. Chris and his parents made a decision took him out of an unsafe environment where the people in charge of protecting him weren't doing their jobs--just as Kurt, Burt, and Carole did when they sent Kurt to Dalton. Removing yourself from an unsafe environment is not cowardly.

They could make Kurt loved and admired like Blaine. They could make Kurt get everything easily like Blaine. And he'd wind up being boring and one dimensional like Blaine. It is the way Kurt reacts to the difficult times that he has lived through that have given him depth--that's where we see his strength, his heart, his compassion--all of the things that make us love Kurt so much.

I don't think RIB are bad writers--they can write some amazing stories. I think that they fail more than they succeed because of the fan pandering and the size of the cast. There are over a dozen characters on this show, each vying for storylines and screentime. With a cast this size, there just isn't time to do every story perfectly. The bottom line is, Kurt is still the most well developed character on the show, and gets the most quality screentime (thanks in large part to Chris' abilities as an actor).

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Shinra17 on 3/4/2012, 10:21 pm

Carousel wrote:^^WOW!! I saw a kid who understands that Dave was in pain and tried to take the ultimate step, that if he had succeeded a human life would have been lost and Kurt did not want to see that, or have Dave attempt it again. He now realizes Dave was reaching out to him for help, because Dave felt he had no one else to turn to. I see Dave as a scared teen who doesn't know how to handle himself and is now on the road to acceptance. Kurt will help him because that is how Kurt is and, trust me on this, it will be cathartic for both of them. Kurt will not be the only one, because he will pull others into helping.

NO, Kurt has not had a lot of agency this season, but I don't see that any of them have. And he will always be inspirational to me because, no matter what the odds, he refuses to give in.
I love what you said. Yeah, not holding to your grudges just in the name of the past is also an important element of growing up for me and I believe that helping Karofsky is something that is going to bring a LOT to kurt, to his self-confidence, to the way he can look back on his past and to be at peace with it. Karofsky is best placed to make Kurt understand and believe it was not a personal thing. I can't anymore with the belief that the preservation of a confrontational relationship or the need to put Kurt again automatically in a victim position is a good thing for Kurt, let alone the fact that the situation will never be solved if you only care about one side, so I'm definitely going to stop here.

fantastica wrote:remember that many of us are way out of the show's target demographics which means it's not really suitable for our tastes. but one way or the other we are stuck here because our love of chris and his character Kurt. We wish the show is written differently, something that's more suitable for our mature taste, but it's not, and it never will be. We will just have to deal w/ it.
Lol, you make me think about my reactions when I watched certain animes, I often forget that most of them are for kids or teens Laughing

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  fantastica on 3/4/2012, 10:33 pm

about holding grudges - all the characters in this show have a tendency not to hold any grudges against anyone (think about will vs. Sue). In a way it's like the bugs bunny cartoon. however many fans can't do that. the never let old wound heal. even though the scar has already disappeared on the show, they are still holding grudges against certain characters. Well in reality, most of us will hold grudges so it's understandable. we jsut have to realize that Glee is a cartoonish show - they keep on doing the same thing again and again. It's their formula.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Shinra17 on 3/5/2012, 12:27 am

fantastica wrote:about holding grudges - all the characters in this show have a tendency not to hold any grudges against anyone (think about will vs. Sue). In a way it's like the bugs bunny cartoon. however many fans can't do that. the never let old wound heal. even though the scar has already disappeared on the show, they are still holding grudges against certain characters. Well in reality, most of us will hold grudges so it's understandable. we jsut have to realize that Glee is a cartoonish show - they keep on doing the same thing again and again. It's their formula.
There is something a bit scary in this idea, RL people holding grudges against fictional characters imprisoned in a monitor...

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 3/5/2012, 8:51 am

Jellyrolls wrote:The message that RIB is trying to send through Kurt is the same message that the Trevor Project is sending out--it gets better. What is so inspiring about Kurt is not the accomplishments, but what he has to overcome to get them. Kurt has been through the wringer on the show the past season and a half. What makes him inspirational, especially to the LGBT kids, is that despite all that he has been through, Kurt stays strong and confident. Kurt doesn't hide who he is or try to change who he is. He overcomes his adversity, and learns from it. Like Kurt said to Dave in On My Way, sometimes life just sucks, but you get through it. The message that they are sending to these kids is stay strong, be confident, be true to yourself--things may be hard, but it will get better. And things have gotten better for Kurt in the past year.
All that got better for Kurt the past year is his boyfriend. Everything else happened for Kurt in season 1: his father accepting him, Burt and Carol getting together, being liked by the other ND members. Since the start of season 3, it is slowly going downhill for Kurt.
In seasons 1 and 2 Kurt's uniqueness was celebrated in "Single Ladies", his lady Gaga outfit, in 'Le Jazz Hot'. Now he can't pass and gets no singing role in the school musical, while being called infamous/detoriating gay words every other episode, by Sebastian and Santana.

What RIB+ is saying is it gets better in the end, but right now there is nothing you can do about that. And that's not true.
Kurt overcomes his adversity by just sucking it up and survive. But he's not fighting it. He's not doing anything for himself anymore that might better his chances of getting out of Lima. We have no information if he is improving his auditioning skills. We do not see him fight the prejudices of his peers and teachers, like he used to do. He doesn't fight for solos anymore, he doesn't call Mr. Schue out on his shit anymore. He just sits there and takes it.
If you want your life to get better, you have to plant the seeds for that yourself, in order to reap the harvest. In season 1 and part of season 2 Kurt used to fight for his rights. He's not doing it anymore. That's the main problem of Kurt right now.

Kurt is luckier than a lot of LGBT because he is the support of a loving father who accepts him and support him. He has a stepmother who loves and accepts him. And he has a lot of friends who love and support him--Friends who stood up for him against his bully.
First of all: I think that most LGBT children do get the support of their family. Some of them don't and they are the ones we must pity and help. Kurt helped by being one of the first teenage gay kids on television who wasn't thrown out by his father. That was a big part of the inspiration Kurt as a character had. The fact that he was accepted by his father and some friends helped him and other kids who identified with him believe that there always can be found some support, in all circumstances.
But now, whenever Kurt is in trouble, RIB+ make sure there's noone there for him to support him. We don't see Blaine support Kurt when he finds out he got the role of officer Krupke. Rachel stabs him in the back at the first sight of trouble. Burt, Finn and Will celebrate Burt's election victory and do not see how sad Kurt is. During all the Karofsky shit they deliberately made sure that Kurt had no family, friends or teachers to support him, or Karofsky.
They want Kurt to suffer, and in order to do that they constantly take his powers/strength away: his support system.
That's why Superman can't stand kryptonite: it's the only way to make him weak and let his enemies have a chance to beat him. Taking Kurt's support away is the only way to make him weak and vulnerable, and they are using it again and again.

Chris himself has lived through the harrassment and teasing that a lot of LGBT kids have gone through. What if Chris was a different type of person and let that harrassment and teasing get to him? He probably wouldn't be on Glee right now if he wasn't a strong and confident young man who found a way to get through that. Chris is the poster boy for it gets better. You just have to find a way to get through it, and you lean on those people who love and support you.
You are right: Chris is the poster boy: he worked his butt off to get out of Clovis.
But Kurt is not showing that same sturm und drang anymore, he is not the poster boy anymore.
Chris had to endure all the prejudice and fear as described in '8' while growing up. There was nothing he could do about that. But he didn't stop building on his future. He kept doing the things he loved to do (acting, singing in high register, writer's club, auditioning), despite what everyone thought about that, and no matter how much they bullied him because of that. He kept working on his skills, for his future, that was his lifeline, to get out of Clovis.
If Chris had given up after one bad audition (and he said himself that he had bad auditions) he would have not made it out of Clovis. Kurt gave up after one audition. He gave his boyfriend flowers and kept happily swaying in the background.
Kurt is not Chris. We keep Kurt on a pedestal because we hold Chris on a (well-deserved) pedestal.
And RIB+ think they can keep doing to Kurt what they are doing, because Chris' success and demeanour in RL is enough to keep Kurt fulfilled/satisfied, even when in canon he's not, if that makes any sense.

And Kurt is not a coward for switching schools to get away from his bully. Removing yourself from an environment where you are repeatedly harrassed and attacked when the authorities don't do enough to solve the problem isn't cowardly--it's smart. I sat 30 feet from Chris in his direct line of vision when he revealed that he was homeschooed for two years after his bullies got too intense. Would you call Chris a coward for doing that? I wouldn't. Chris and his parents made a decision took him out of an unsafe environment where the people in charge of protecting him weren't doing their jobs--just as Kurt, Burt, and Carole did when they sent Kurt to Dalton. Removing yourself from an unsafe environment is not cowardly.
I would never call Chris a coward, you know that.
I didn't say Kurt is a coward for switching schools. Kurt definitely had to get out of McKinley to a safer environment. What Karofsky did and threaten to do to him was very, very bad and dangerous.
I said that other people are starting to say Kurt was a coward in season 2 now, to justify/explain away the severity of Karofsky's bullying. Because they want to see Dave as a poor troubled gay kid, who wouldn't hurt any creature, great or small, unless that creature reminded Dave of his own gay pain, and you can't blame him for that, can you?
By woobifying Karofsky they diminished the hazard severity, the impact of what he did to Kurt. And hence people start to think that Kurt had no reason for transferring, and should have just taken it, like Rachel and Artie did, because the severity of their bullying was not much less than Kurt's.
After 'Heart' there was a thread that talked about this. Karofsky's bullying was compared with Azimio's, Puck's, Santana's and Quinn's. And we all know there was much more going on.

They could make Kurt loved and admired like Blaine. They could make Kurt get everything easily like Blaine. And he'd wind up being boring and one dimensional like Blaine. It is the way Kurt reacts to the difficult times that he has lived through that have given him depth--that's where we see his strength, his heart, his compassion--all of the things that make us love Kurt so much.
Blaine is boring because Darren is boring. Blaine is not a compelling character that RIB+ are inspired to write for. That doesn't mean that an inspiring character like Kurt can only be interesting when he gets kicked in the balls all the time. Kurt got his triumphs in season 1, and he was still interesting.
I'd even say that because Kurt has turned into a silent suffering martyr who always is noble and right nowadays, he has become a character that is more boring and more one dimensial than Kurt ever was before. Kurt needs flaws and fangs and claws, like he used to have.
If Chris wasn't the one playing Kurt, giving him his humanity, his character would have been bland too. The good thing about that is that RIB+ probably would have lost any interest in writing for him anymore, like they did with Blaine, because of Darren. And they would have left Kurt alone and happy, like Tina and Mike. Sucks for Chris Colfer fans, but good for Kurt.

fantastica wrote:about holding grudges - all the characters in this show have a tendency not to hold any grudges against anyone (think about will vs. Sue). In a way it's like the bugs bunny cartoon. however many fans can't do that. the never let old wound heal. even though the scar has already disappeared on the show, they are still holding grudges against certain characters. Well in reality, most of us will hold grudges so it's understandable. we jsut have to realize that Glee is a cartoonish show - they keep on doing the same thing again and again. It's their formula.
Actions have consequences in canon. To simply forget that is bad writing.
Besides, it's not about holding grudges against a character. It's about denying events in canon that made those scars ever excisted.
This is not a bugs bunny cartoon, nor a soap opera like Dynasty or As The World Turns. Glee itself touches delicate issues as bullying and teen suicide. If they want to show us that, they should do it right. They accepted that challenge, they should deliver.
If we have to wave everything away as "It's only a tv show" we might as well delete this thread, because why would there be a need to discuss episodes at all, if we can't discuss what was shown in canon?
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Delight on 3/6/2012, 3:17 am

Hi, Glorfindel. I can see from your posts here and on GF that you're still quite deeply affected (and offended) by the way Glee had handled the suicide storyline in 'On My Way'. I'm glad you're finding an outlet for your feelings here. I'll try to add my two cents' worth of thoughts on the matter.

Glorfindel wrote: All that got better for Kurt the past year is his boyfriend.

It was a poor prize, I agree. Glee really mishandled the bullying storyline last season. Kurt was separated from the New Directions for nearly half the season, mostly to give the bullying issue the gravity it deserved, but the way it was resolved in the end was a joke. Kurt's suffering at the hands of Karofsky had been made light of, as if he was over-reacting (with Karofsky claiming that his death threat was a figure of speech); and Kurt had been far too quick to forgive Karofsky. The first time I watched that scene where Kurt and Karofsky walked down the hallway in Prom Queen, my reaction was 'What the heck? Does Kurt have the self-preservation instincts of a lemming? How can he be so calm walking side by side with the person who had made his life a living hell for months, regardless of said person's status as a 'Bully Whip'?' Kurt had never required any protection from other homophobic schoolmates, so the whole 'Bully Whip' set up was ridiculous anyway. The only person Kurt had required any protection from at that time was Karofsky, his very own obsessed and closeted bully. The hallway apology by Karofsky looked sincere for all intents and purposes, but Kurt should still, realistically speaking, be fearful and resentful of his tormentor. Henceforth, Kurt had been made into this character who suffers too much and forgives too easily. What can I say, except that the writing on Glee just sucks sometimes?

I suppose Glee may have re-explored the bullying issue in an attempt to do it justice this time, but yes, reactions to it had been mixed at best. The storyline may have helped the bullied kids who had been Karofsky's shoes, but not so much for the bullied kids who had been in Kurt's shoes-- as you've said in one of your posts.

Glorfindel wrote: Now he can't pass and gets no singing role in the school musical, while being called infamous/detoriating gay words every other episode, by Sebastian and Santana.

I'm still hoping for a 'great conclusion' to the whole effeminophobia issue that had been raised in Glee. I mean, if Ryan Murphy went into a hissy fit because of that Newsweek article about gay actors being unconvincing in straight roles, I don't see why he would use Kurt Hummel, his gay poster boy on Glee, to reinforce such negative biased views. I have no idea what the writers had planned for Kurt in the future, but it'd be foolish of them to deny Kurt his triumph at the end of the season. Maybe the ultimate message they want to send out is that Kurt can succeed by being just the way he is.

However, a NYADA victory would ring kinda hollow and unrealistic when Kurt's singing had been shown not to be good enough for school musicals and show choir competitions.

Glorfindel wrote: But now, whenever Kurt is in trouble, RIB+ make sure there's noone there for him to support him. We don't see Blaine support Kurt when he finds out he got the role of officer Krupke. Rachel stabs him in the back at the first sight of trouble. Burt, Finn and Will celebrate Burt's election victory and do not see how sad Kurt is. During all the Karofsky shit they deliberately made sure that Kurt had no family, friends or teachers to support him, or Karofsky.
They want Kurt to suffer, and in order to do that they constantly take his powers/strength away: his support system.
That's why Superman can't stand kryptonite: it's the only way to make him weak and let his enemies have a chance to beat him. Taking Kurt's support away is the only way to make him weak and vulnerable, and they are using it again and again.

It's a contractual obligation that Kurt/Chris has to cry in every other episode on Glee, because Chris is way too good at it Rolling Eyes

Joking aside, you're right. They have deliberately isolated Kurt, and no explanation had been given as to why Kurt didn't, or couldn't, approach his boyfriend or his family with his guilt issues over ignoring Karofsky's phone calls. Head canon is required to explain this one. But from a narrative point of view, the Kurt-Karofsky scene in the hospital wouldn't had been so poignant and powerful if you have Blaine or Burt standing behind Kurt and glaring at Karofsky. The writers chose to make Karofsky the bully victim in this episode, and they can't afford to remind the audience too much about Karofsky's past role as a bully himself, because that effectively kills any sympathy people may have for Karofsky. 'Karma is a bitch' and 'What goes around comes around' are not the thoughts that you want to generate in your audience when you want to garner sympathy for the character who's playing the role of the suicidal kid in the episode. Maybe in doing so, they have had to downplay Kurt's bullying at the hands of Karofsky. They still reminded the audience that Karofsky was Kurt's bully (and they had Karofsky admitting to this and feeling sorry for his actions), but they had Kurt be the one to brush it aside this time, by saying that 'it's okay' and that he should have still answered Karofsky's phone calls no matter what their past relationship had been like.

Kurt had been praised as 'the most moral, compassionate person' by Blaine in Season2, and Kurt's willingness to reach his hand out to Karofsky in friendship demonstrated this side of him. I like that Kurt was willing to bury the hatchet and help Karofsky. It may not be the wisest decision (way to go to make Karofsky fall in love with you more, Kurt), but Kurt has a track record of not making decisions to promote his own self-interest at the cost of causing pain to someone else (e.g. throwing the diva-off with Rachel for his dad, letting himself getting bullied out of McKinley even when he could have used Karofsky's sexual orientation against him-- Kurt could have done the blackmailing himself without Santana but he chose not to).

Glorfindel wrote: Kurt is not Chris. We keep Kurt on a pedestal because we hold Chris on a (well-deserved) pedestal.
And RIB+ think they can keep doing to Kurt what they are doing, because Chris' success and demeanour in RL is enough to keep Kurt fulfilled/satisfied, even when in canon he's not, if that makes any sense.

Re: the bolded. How very true. I know that if Chris hadn't been the one to act as Kurt Hummel, I highly doubt that I'd be this much invested in the character.

I agree that the Glee writers may have blurred the lines between Chris and Kurt too much. It's the consequence of too much lazy storytelling with the constant stealing from the real life actor to shape the TV character. Maybe they're the ones who needed to be reminded that Kurt is not Chris, and that Kurt needs to be shown to have his triumphant moments on the show. Chris had his Golden Globe, his Emmy noms, his first movie; but Kurt had... nothing so far. He got accepted as a NYADA finalist and that's about all there is in terms of the accomplishments of his dreams so far.


Glorfindel wrote: I said that other people are starting to say Kurt was a coward in season 2 now, to justify/explain away the severity of Karofsky's bullying. Because they want to see Dave as a poor troubled gay kid, who wouldn't hurt any creature, great or small, unless that creature reminded Dave of his own gay pain, and you can't blame him for that, can you?

Ooh... that is offensive on so many counts, it's not funny. There are actually people who think that? Sigh, if I let myself get worked up over every Kurt-bashing *insert derogatory noun here* that exists on the internet, I'd never get any sleep. I think it's healthier (for us) in the long run to steer clear from these haters.

Glorfindel wrote: If Chris wasn't the one playing Kurt, giving him his humanity, his character would have been bland too. The good thing about that is that RIB+ probably would have lost any interest in writing for him anymore, like they did with Blaine, because of Darren. And they would have left Kurt alone and happy, like Tina and Mike. Sucks for Chris Colfer fans, but good for Kurt.

Yes, if making Kurt unhappy is the price that has to be paid to make him an interesting character and get him storylines, and to get more Chris on my screen, then I'm willing to accept it. But, as you've said, it's a pity that the writers are incapable to creating interesting storylines for Kurt that don't rely so much on angst all the time.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  fantastica on 3/6/2012, 3:28 am

Kurt being turned into a gay poster boy is definitely a big minus for the character of Kurt, but one cannot easily ignore such pressure from the public. Even Chris has felt hte need to "behave" in order to live up to the public's expectation of him as a role model. It's very limiting to his personal freedom, but as a celebrity and public figure, it's one of the price to pay for all the fame and fortune and professional success that you amass.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  arina on 3/6/2012, 4:17 am

One would think that people would be more inspired by flawed character who makes mistakes than someone who is not allowed to make any mistake and has to be always right...

You know, on the one hand I don't like Glee is trying to be so inspirational and send big messages all the time and use Kurt often as mouthepiece, when is supposed to be comedy most of all and it started as a tv show who didn't take itself too seriously, many peple stopped watching because of it. On the other hand I read many people's stories about Glee saving their lives. I am really surprised I have never thought tv show could have such impact on people's lives, but it has. It was incredibly moving stories and Kurt was important in many of them. So it all has some purpose. As a viewer and fan of Kurt edgier character I am not happy, but there are many other shows who can make me happy and if the Glee saves other lives, it's all worth it.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  brisallie on 3/6/2012, 8:36 am

arina wrote:One would think that people would be more inspired by flawed character who makes mistakes than someone who is not allowed to make any mistake and has to be always right...

You know, on the one hand I don't like Glee is trying to be so inspirational and send big messages all the time and use Kurt often as mouthepiece, when is supposed to be comedy most of all and it started as a tv show who didn't take itself too seriously, many peple stopped watching because of it. On the other hand I read many people's stories about Glee saving their lives. I am really surprised I have never thought tv show could have such impact on people's lives, but it has. It was incredibly moving stories and Kurt was important in many of them. So it all has some purpose. As a viewer and fan of Kurt edgier character I am not happy, but there are many other shows who can make me happy and if the Glee saves other lives, it's all worth it.

AGREE.

I don't know is because I get used to the fact that Glee is not a comedy anymore, is more like a dramedy so I don't get mad if Kurt is the poster of those kids who have suffered at school because as you have said, is that means to save some lifes, I'm glad that he's a hero for them. However, and now I'm talking about Chris, he doesn't feel like a hero and as Kim has said, he has to "behave" ; sometimes I feel he's limited because of it.

About shows that makes you happy, the other day I had a marathon watching a lot of comedies who weren't Glee Razz

Re: the bolded. How very true. I know that if Chris hadn't been the one to act as Kurt Hummel, I highly doubt that I'd be this much invested in the character.

Actually If he hadn't been cast as Kurt, there won't be KURT HUMMEL, it would have been Rajash- that was the name? huh
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  tanita_mors on 3/6/2012, 8:44 am

The biggest problem is that Glee has no balance or moderation. I get that it wants be socially relevant, especially when it comes to LGBT issues, but they have be an equally interesting and fun show at the same time. It worked very well is season 1 because they chose 2 character to tell that story with, Kurt and Quinn. We had his coming out and struggle and her dealing with teen pregnancy and the fall out from it. It was well plotted and stretched just enough so that it keep you interested but it didn't suffocate you. People sometimes forget that most problems take time and all of them shouldn't be done in 1 episode - that is why I simply loved the evolution of Kurt in the B9 of season 1 and the first part of season 2. But now, we have Kurt/Santana/Blaine/Dave/Quinn/... and all of they are used to send so kind of message. They want to shove in as much as they can, and as a result you get the show we see. A complete mess with a few bright moments of inspiration and genius once in a while.

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Delight on 3/6/2012, 9:56 am

Glee might have been laying it a bit thick with the big messages and all, but I somehow feel that this aspect of the show is what's making it different from the other shows.

I believe that it was after Preggers, when it dawned on everyone how powerful and positive it had been to show a father fully accepting his gay son on TV, that Ryan Murphy realized the potential that Glee had in bringing up some socially relevant issues in the public consciousness as well.

The decision to give the bullying storyline so much weight in Season 2 had earned Chris a well-deserved place in TIME's 100 Most influential people. However, I can't help feeling that maybe that is the starting point of the decline of the show, because it started to take itself too seriously. But when you're dealing with serious issues, you have to handle it with the respect and seriousness it deserved. The Glee writers just hadn't been able to do 'serious' without becoming too preachy and having the comedy sucked right out of it.

Glee had become more of a drama than a comedy now... and dare we face the truth? That it's Kurt/Chris who had changed the entire feel of the show? But it's a pity really. Chris had demonstrated that he could do comedy just as brilliantly as he did drama, if they only give him the chance.

To be honest, I won't be able to enjoy Glee as a show if Kurt/Chris hadn't been in it. The other storylines this season, about Brittana, Santana's outing, Puck's forbidden romance, Finchel marriage, Samcedes, Irish foreign exchange student, Sue's pregnancy and personality transplant-- they all bored me and made me question why I even bother watching the show. I only care about Kurt, but a lot of that had to do with me caring a lot about Chris, and probably has less to do with how Kurt had been written on the show lately.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  CloveGlee on 3/6/2012, 10:38 am

Remember this, as well. RIB have only tried once to give Kurt a storyline that made him fallible, capable of mistakes. They made him fall in love with Finn and attempt to set up circumstances that would put them together a lot.

He. Was. ROASTED. The hate was vicious. Violent. Never mind that everybody else on Glee "harasses" each other sexually to the same extent all the time. One Gleeforum moderator thought that Finn needed to beat him up.

Kurt is a saint now because they are terrified of giving him flaws. The reaction is unreal.


Glee had become more of a drama than a comedy now... and dare we face the truth? That it's Kurt/Chris who had changed the entire feel of the show? But it's a pity really. Chris had demonstrated that he could do comedy just as brilliantly as he did drama, if they only give him the chance.

He was the catalyst, but it was not necessary for them to be so ham-fisted about it. They just aren't skillful enough to tell his story well. Actually, I think the problem is also that MAX ADLER ended up being very, very much more popular than they expected, too. They created a coal-black villain who developed a fan base, and then had to remake him to please the Pirates. They destroyed their message in the process.

And all because some gays don't want a fem to represent them. They want Max, and they want him as redeemable when his actions are not. So Kurt gets to be an overreacting coward. Such a sissy. :angry:

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 3/6/2012, 1:24 pm

Delight wrote:Hi, Glorfindel. I can see from your posts here and on GF that you're still quite deeply affected (and offended) by the way Glee had handled the suicide storyline in 'On My Way'. I'm glad you're finding an outlet for your feelings here. I'll try to add my two cents' worth of thoughts on the matter.
Thank you for your post, @Delight.
I have been very upset, yes, I still am. I'm sorry if I was such a downer for those who enjoy Kurt and Karofsky on screen together, but I had my reasons.

Besides my own experiences with bullies, there is more. My sister met a Karofsky. Physical and verbal abuse, emotional manipulation, tears of regret, death threats, stalking, threatening to kill himself, my sister contemplating suicide: all that happened.
The authorities kept turning a blind eye, and if they said anything at all they told my sister to take him back because he loved her and he was such a poor guy. Also: for the sake of the children (?!).
My sister fled far away, and now I get to see her (and my 3 nieces) twice a year, instead of twice a week.
I know Karofsky is not such a monster (anymore), but RIB+ didn't make it very clear he is much better either. They wanted cheap melodrama and stupid romance, and it messed their message up very badly.
The secret admirer stuff, the phonecalls, even the suicide attempt,..... and all the triggers and alarmbells I've acquired over the years went of in 'Heart' and 'On My Way'. It was so terrible to see how RIB+ ignored and dismissed all the people who went through something like that, the real victims.
It was bad in season 2, the cop-out of the bullying arc, but now it was so much worse. :(

I felt Kurt needed defending, he needed to be protected and guarded, when he was left alone to deal with all the feelings involving Karofsky all by himself (and the God squad !?).
And I felt the word needed to get out so that RIB+ know never to touch this storyline again. They cannot be trusted with this.
I'm not afraid that Dave Karofsky will hurt Kurt again. But I am afraid that RIB+ will hurt Kurt again, if they want Dave Karofsky (Max Adler) in Glee again.
Claire suggested in her recap that Dave could join the ND and sing a big solo in show choir, because Mr. Schue would pity him. And knowing RIB+, that might actually happen. :angry:

Delight wrote:The first time I watched that scene where Kurt and Karofsky walked down the hallway in Prom Queen, my reaction was 'What the heck? Does Kurt have the self-preservation instincts of a lemming? How can he be so calm walking side by side with the person who had made his life a living hell for months, regardless of said person's status as a 'Bully Whip'?' Kurt had never required any protection from other homophobic schoolmates, so the whole 'Bully Whip' set up was ridiculous anyway. The only person Kurt had required any protection from at that time was Karofsky, his very own obsessed and closeted bully. The hallway apology by Karofsky looked sincere for all intents and purposes, but Kurt should still, realistically speaking, be fearful and resentful of his tormentor. Henceforth, Kurt had been made into this character who suffers too much and forgives too easily. What can I say, except that the writing on Glee just sucks sometimes?
When I saw Kurt walking with Dave I thought: How can they torment Kurt even more by forcing him to be with his former tormentor on a daily basis? It's like walking with a hungry tiger on a leash, not knowing when the leash (Santana's blackmail) is going to break. And when Dave apologized I felt he did it more to relieve himself, to stop his own bad feelings, than to make Kurt feel better. But that's just my point of view.
Also: I don't think Kurt ever said that he forgave Dave, at least not in that hallway scene. Kurt said that he could hate Dave when he was bullying him, but all he saw now was his pain. Does anyone recall if Kurt actually said "I forgive you."?
Not that it really matters, because it's obvious that Kurt has forgiven Dave, but it is still telling, I think? unsure

Delight wrote:However, a NYADA victory would ring kinda hollow and unrealistic when Kurt's singing had been shown not to be good enough for school musicals and show choir competitions.
Kurt not singing in ND is so ridiculous. RIB+ are so blinded by iTunes that they destroy their own stories.
I've heard it say that Darren, Naya and Amber all have a record deal with FOX (they are obligated to FOX when making a record). Not sure if it's true, but that would explain a lot, I think. It's infuriating. :angry:

Delight wrote:Joking aside, you're right. They have deliberately isolated Kurt, and no explanation had been given as to why Kurt didn't, or couldn't, approach his boyfriend or his family with his guilt issues over ignoring Karofsky's phone calls. Head canon is required to explain this one. But from a narrative point of view, the Kurt-Karofsky scene in the hospital wouldn't had been so poignant and powerful if you have Blaine or Burt standing behind Kurt and glaring at Karofsky. The writers chose to make Karofsky the bully victim in this episode, and they can't afford to remind the audience too much about Karofsky's past role as a bully himself, because that effectively kills any sympathy people may have for Karofsky. 'Karma is a bitch' and 'What goes around comes around' are not the thoughts that you want to generate in your audience when you want to garner sympathy for the character who's playing the role of the suicidal kid in the episode. Maybe in doing so, they have had to downplay Kurt's bullying at the hands of Karofsky. They still reminded the audience that Karofsky was Kurt's bully (and they had Karofsky admitting to this and feeling sorry for his actions), but they had Kurt be the one to brush it aside this time, by saying that 'it's okay' and that he should have still answered Karofsky's phone calls no matter what their past relationship had been like.
^THIS.

Kurt had been praised as 'the most moral, compassionate person' by Blaine in Season2, and Kurt's willingness to reach his hand out to Karofsky in friendship demonstrated this side of him. I like that Kurt was willing to bury the hatchet and help Karofsky. It may not be the wisest decision (way to go to make Karofsky fall in love with you more, Kurt), but Kurt has a track record of not making decisions to promote his own self-interest at the cost of causing pain to someone else (e.g. throwing the diva-off with Rachel for his dad, letting himself getting bullied out of McKinley even when he could have used Karofsky's sexual orientation against him-- Kurt could have done the blackmailing himself without Santana but he chose not to).
I was even angry at Kurt for becoming so self-negligent, for taking Dave's hurt upon his shoulders, while having to carry so much himself already. It's all explainable in canon, this is who Kurt is, but it so pisses me off that Kurt suffers and suffers, and adds even more responsibility and hurt upon himself, even when it is wise not to.
He did it in 'Furt' too. Kurt could have outed Dave, and then his transfer to Dalton would not have been necessary. Kurt didn't do it because he felt that outing is wrong (and I agree with him), but maybe it would have made things better for Kurt and Karofsky.
I don't think Kurt could have blackmailed Karofsky: Karofsky already showed he did not hesitate to use violence against Kurt, and no matter how strong Kurt has become, he is no match physically to Karofsky (unless he would have taken his sai-swords to school). And Karofsky already mentally had Kurt in a vulnerable place: he was scared to death (literally) of Karofsky; he was mentally not in a position to blackmail him.
I guess Santana got away with the blackmail because Karofsky did not want to hit a girl ? (although Karofsky had no trouble hitting a smaller guy)
Yeah, the writing sucks. dryy

I agree that the Glee writers may have blurred the lines between Chris and Kurt too much. It's the consequence of too much lazy storytelling with the constant stealing from the real life actor to shape the TV character. Maybe they're the ones who needed to be reminded that Kurt is not Chris, and that Kurt needs to be shown to have his triumphant moments on the show. Chris had his Golden Globe, his Emmy noms, his first movie; but Kurt had... nothing so far. He got accepted as a NYADA finalist and that's about all there is in terms of the accomplishments of his dreams so far.
If they don't give Kurt NYADA they will have destroyed him completely. He needs/deserves it even more than Rachel now. And that in itself is ridiculous. That Kurt deserves NYADA because he has had so much trouble and heartache. That should not be the message. The message should be that Kurt deserves NYADA because he's very talented and has had worked very hard. Sadly, that is not the story they are telling. :(

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CloveGlee wrote:Remember this, as well. RIB have only tried once to give Kurt a storyline that made him fallible, capable of mistakes. They made him fall in love with Finn and attempt to set up circumstances that would put them together a lot.

He. Was. ROASTED.
The hate was vicious. Violent. Never mind that everybody else on Glee "harasses" each other sexually to the same extent all the time. One Gleeforum moderator thought that Finn needed to beat him up.

Kurt is a saint now because they are terrified of giving him flaws. The reaction is unreal.
It is sad that Kurt was crucified for his crush on Finn. In a GF thread ,someone mentioned that Karofsky fell in love with Kurt because he was so desperate that he would latch onto anyone who showed some form of affection to him. And those were almost the exact words Chris used while defending Kurt's crush on Finn at Comic Con. It accidentally also started another round of "Why Kurt was creepy to Finn.". dryy
After all the damnation of Kurt for his Finn crush, I felt appaled that now we just have to forgive and forget Karofsky for tormenting Kurt, because he is such a poor guy and Max is so hot!
Such double standards.

CloveGlee wrote:
He was the catalyst, but it was not necessary for them to be so ham-fisted about it. They just aren't skillful enough to tell his story well. Actually, I think the problem is also that MAX ADLER ended up being very, very much more popular than they expected, too. They created a coal-black villain who developed a fan base, and then had to remake him to please the Pirates. They destroyed their message in the process.
Yes, they did. They destroyed the message of their first gay posterboy to create another gay posterboy and fulfill the wishes of Pirate fans.
I do believe that Chris (as Kurt) was a big part of the reason Glee started sending those 'Very Important Messages'. Kurt's coming out story was compelling and created a chain reaction RIB didn't expect to happen. And they thought they could do that again, and again, and again.
But they are not capable of doing it on purpose, if you know what I mean. The big strength of Kurt's story in 'Preggers' was that it was meant to be a small, sweet story full of hope and acceptance, and not that 'Very Important Message'. By thinking about it too much, they could not reproduce the genuineness that Kurt's storyline had become before they started thinking about it too much.
Did that make any sense? blinkk

CloveGlee wrote:And all because some gays don't want a fem to represent them. They want Max, and they want him as redeemable when his actions are not. So Kurt gets to be an overreacting coward. Such a sissy. :angry:
Let me tell you all a true story. Besides what happened to my sister and me, this story is at the base of why I'm so protective of Kurt.

One of my acquaintances, a gay guy like Kurt, effeminate and out and proud, once got gay-bashed and gang-raped by a bunch of other gay(!) guys, the (physical) Karofsky kind of guys. He was thrown out of a car and left to die on the highway. He survived, but never was the same again.
And we're talking about something that happened in the Netherlands, an advanced country when it comes to homosexuality, not a place like Clovis, California. It happened within the gay community.
This is real. Kurt's story is real. Glee is a stupid tv show, but they have no idea that when they commit to tell these stories, they have to be very careful that they tell the whole story.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  fantastica on 3/6/2012, 5:05 pm

Marie, I understand where you are from. you are probably the most "motherly" of us Kurtsies toward Kurt and you are taking this show very seriously. Please feel free to express whatever you feel, however negative they may be. I said "this is only a tv show..." because I wanted to comfort you, and not to shut you up, nor to change your view on things. I think we are all pretty stubborn when it comes to opinions, and that's part of the fun for being here and discuss/debate/argue here. neutre

Remember that Chris himself doesn't seem to mind at all doing any kurt vs. dave scene now. If anything he seems to embrace it wholeheartedly (at least partially due to his enjoyment of acting w/ Max).

p.s. I have long given up on having the fandom all love and respect Kurt like we do. It's never gonna happen. But then, I can't find a single character on the show that's not hated by some portion of the fandom, witht he exception of some fringe characters like Tina who nobody pay attention to in the first place.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  ColferGirl on 3/6/2012, 8:45 pm

@Marie -



I'm so sorry to hear that about your sister and your friend. :(

I can understand why Kurt's storyline is upsetting you so much, hearing about your personal experiences. I'm sorry that you feel Glee is failing you and people like you and those you know by not giving Kurt the support or care he needs during these tramautic situations, and also for not handling several of his storylines with the sensitivity and depth they deserve. Like Kim, I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to let out your frustrations here; I think all of us feel that way about this new forum, so please continue to when you need it. I really love you and your posts so I'm glad you haven't given up and keep struggling through this show with us, no matter how frustrating it can be at times.


I do have something I'm curious about. Most of us seem, at least on some level, dissatisfied with Kurt's characterization this season. But my question is, what particular thing is it that we're all missing, or unhappy with? I know lots of people say they want season 1 Kurt back. But when people say that, I guess my question would be - do you miss the Kurt who was perpetually "bitchy" and superior, with numerous harsh Santana-ish or witty snappy remarks, whose personality had more jagged edges, and his kinder and more vulnerable side was really only revealed in more private moments with Burt and occasionally others? Or is what we miss a Kurt who was allowed to make mistakes (the basement plan), or be in the wrong and acknowledged as in the wrong, a Kurt who'd lash out and get angry when HE was wronged or upset, a Kurt who still had enough ambition (though still not Rachel's cutthroat ambition levels) that he and Mercedes joined the Cheerios in order to finally have solos?

Because I think there is a difference, personally (though neither opinion is wrong). One is more of a "I liked Kurt's overall personality back then better", and the other is "I miss when Kurt was better balanced, more human with flaws that were still shown on screen, and had more agency."

I just keep thinking about it because a lot of people seem to want the "old" Kurt back, but I personally like season 2/season 3 Kurt. I don't think he has a completely different personality, personally, I just think this is who Kurt became due to his character development, going from the lonely, closed off kid with mile high walls to one with a lot more confidence and a lot less loneliness, someone whose gone through a lot of hardship and come out the other end as someone even more compassionate, happier, with softer edges and more open to allowing people to see his vulnerability. But he's still snarky and has witty remarks ("Heaven, you'd think"), he still lashes out when he's hurt (how he acted to Rachel backstabbing him over the presidency), he can still be fierce and bitchy when faced with people he severely dislikes (see: Sebastian), and he can still act superior when he thinks something beneath him is occuring (Red Solo Cup). But now, all those traits are offset with his sweeter side, and the sweet Kurt seems to be out more often than the snarky one.

Which leads me back to what makes me dissatisfied about this season's characterization - it's not that I want Kurt to go back to being more like his season 1 self. I'm happy with how his character has developed, I love the person that he's become. I think what I'm unhappy about is the latter option, that the writers won't let Kurt be flawed and make mistakes, won't allow him to be in the wrong, won't let him react to certain situations with the anger and upset they deserve (like being given Officer Krupke), and won't let him fight for what he wants anymore (not a peep of complaint from Kurt about almost anything). I don't think being a flawed character again is exclusive from the kind of person Kurt is now, the Kurt with the softer edges, who is more often sweet than snarky. There's a lot of ways to be stupid, or a huge jerk, or be in the wrong, without making Kurt closer to who he was in season 1 (for example, I think Kurt can still be so compassionate to Karofsky and others, and very steadfastly anti-bullying and anti-violence, but still do something really selfish about something else).

So I was wondering what all of you guys thought. Do you wish Kurt was more like he was in season 1, not just about being more balanced and with flaws, but everything about his personality too; you think season 1 Kurt is superior. Or do you think the Kurt we have now is fine, you just wish the writers wouldn't make him so nice all the dang time, and would allow him to have scenes and storylines that let him make a mistake and be angry, selfish, etc. sometimes?

I hope any of that made sense. unsure

Paulo (I think that's his name), Hereyoutalktotony from tumblr, he's a Kurtsie and he has a similar opinion to mine and wrote a post about it that prompted me to write this one. Maybe reading his post will explain what I mean better, I'll link to it since I don't know if he'd be ok with me copy and pasting it: Paulo's post about Kurt's current self versus who he was
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  fantastica on 3/6/2012, 10:20 pm

Thanks Colfergirl for coming up w/ interesting topics for discussion. neutre

I like season 1 Kurt a lot because the stories he has portray him as an imperfect little kid w/ vulnerabilities as well as sensitiviities that makes him relateable. He was also the one who will use his smarts to solve problems and attempt to make his life better - preggars, rachel make over, pretending to be butch to please his dad, and getting Finn to be his roomy - all of these are his "schemes" to put himself in a better situation, regardless of his success rates. In season 2, ever since Finn and Burt shut him down, he becomes the victim, more or less the "reactor", rather than a "proactor". It seems that he's more or less "coping", instead of "living". He still auditions for songs but he's lost that "edge" from S1. He's mellowed a lot. In season 3, he does audition for Tony and he tries the school president thing, but instead of making him look like a victim of the environment (as in S2) they now pit him against his super boyfriend in every regard, even though I am sure it's not all that intentional. This to me is what turned me against Blaine in so many ways and made me want to split them up as soon as possible, because I view Blaine as a toxic element in Kurt's life. Because of Blaine's band and inconsistent personality (for lack of better words), klaine has a weird and unbalalanced dynamic, and I simply don't understand a lot of why kurt does or doesn't do. I think he would argue w/ blaine about Tony but no, it's just him willingly stepping down to kiss blaine's ass. ok so you say it's about "growth". that's he's learned to suck it up rather than fight it back. But somehow he's still super ambitious about NYADA, instead of just giving up everything and look up Blaine for all his happiness - I mean Kurt is not only turned into a flawless poster boy in this season but he's becomig more puzzling for me too - he's characterization is approachign that of blaine - the even more puzzling and uncharacteristic representation of some kind of super sexy super talented perfect human form. I cannot understand for the life of me how they can have no conflict over Tony and Sebastian. How they can avoid talking about things that would puzzle us viewers for so long. The more I don't understand them, the less I find hte characters interesting.
I understand that teenage years is a time of transition, when kids are becomign adults and there can be huge changes in their world views and their personalities and character. In real life someone like Kurt will go through a similar process of growth and maturation, and it's not suprising that he's mellowed a lot, given that he does have to cope in a rather hostitle environment. What I don't like about hte newer Kurt, is that he's so prestine and moral. He's still young and can still make mistakes. he can still have feeling of jealousy and resentment toward his boyfriend over things like WSS. He can still at least talk about Sebastian w/ Blaine. But he doesn't. That's why I dont' understand him and as a result I just don't want to go deep into every scenes to try to make sense. To me it's the show's duty to make sense of everything. The moment I have to rely on my head canon to explain everything, it's time for me to pull out at least somewhat emotionally from this show, because this show simply cannot live up to my expectations as I wanted. Instead I lowered my expectations and treated like a live cartoon show. It allowed me to enjoy the show more and think less. Sad but true.
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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Guest on 3/6/2012, 11:10 pm

I think there are just too many writers involved. There is not a clear picture for them of which direction to go in. Look how the actors don't seem to get scripts until just before they start to film. I think we have been lucky that Kurt has stayed the most consistent and shown the most character growth. Rachel and Finn seem pretty much the same as season 1 and Santana's story - well, I won't go there. I started to hate Artie + Beastie during WSS and am only coming out of it now. Brit is out of it one moment and singing her heart out the next. Blaine is there to sell sex and songs. They cram way too much into each episode and drop story lines like crazy. I have given up hoping for great things and just watch for Chris.

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Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  brisallie on 3/7/2012, 12:35 am

Glorfindel wrote:
I have been very upset, yes, I still am. I'm sorry if I was such a downer for those who enjoy Kurt and Karofsky on screen together, but I had my reasons.

Besides my own experiences with bullies, there is more. My sister met a Karofsky. Physical and verbal abuse, emotional manipulation, tears of regret, death threats, stalking, threatening to kill himself, my sister contemplating suicide: all that happened.
The authorities kept turning a blind eye, and if they said anything at all they told my sister to take him back because he loved her and he was such a poor guy. Also: for the sake of the children (?!).
My sister fled far away, and now I get to see her (and my 3 nieces) twice a year, instead of twice a week.
I know Karofsky is not such a monster (anymore), but RIB+ didn't make it very clear he is much better either. They wanted cheap melodrama and stupid romance, and it messed their message up very badly.
The secret admirer stuff, the phonecalls, even the suicide attempt,..... and all the triggers and alarmbells I've acquired over the years went of in 'Heart' and 'On My Way'. It was so terrible to see how RIB+ ignored and dismissed all the people who went through something like that, the real victims.
It was bad in season 2, the cop-out of the bullying arc, but now it was so much worse. :(

I felt Kurt needed defending, he needed to be protected and guarded, when he was left alone to deal with all the feelings involving Karofsky all by himself (and the God squad !?).
And I felt the word needed to get out so that RIB+ know never to touch this storyline again. They cannot be trusted with this.
I'm not afraid that Dave Karofsky will hurt Kurt again. But I am afraid that RIB+ will hurt Kurt again, if they want Dave Karofsky (Max Adler) in Glee again.
Claire suggested in her recap that Dave could join the ND and sing a big solo in show choir, because Mr. Schue would pity him. And knowing RIB+, that might actually happen. :angry:

...
One of my acquaintances, a gay guy like Kurt, effeminate and out and proud, once got gay-bashed and gang-raped by a bunch of other gay(!) guys, the (physical) Karofsky kind of guys. He was thrown out of a car and left to die on the highway. He survived, but never was the same again.
And we're talking about something that happened in the Netherlands, an advanced country when it comes to homosexuality, not a place like Clovis, California. It happened within the gay community.
This is real. Kurt's story is real. Glee is a stupid tv show, but they have no idea that when they commit to tell these stories, they have to be very careful that they tell the whole story.

Ven aquí Marie y dame un abrazo



Now that I read your story I understand better why you've been so upset toward the last two episodes of Glee but as you have mentioned, RIB hardly ever -never- get into the depth of the stories so at the end we doesn't know too much about the characters. Personally I think Karofsky has changed, though we don't know if there's still a trace from his past but for viewers he's like a new person who won't hurt Kurt BUT as you also have said, RIB will find they way to make cry our boy ¬¬

This's a personal question but the gay guy you met is better today? Does he feel save at least? I'm asking you this because a gay guy was attacked in my city these week and his at the hospital :(
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