Re: 3x14 "On My Way" Watch & Discussion thread

[Shinra17]

But helping Dave should not be Kurt's task, there are some major complications.
Claire explains it perfectly in her episode recap.

The beautiful thing about helping someone else is precisely when it is not a task we have to do, otherwise, it would be merely a job.

I've read Cloveglee's recap and sorry but I find it a bit dramatic and actually theoretical (I hope it's the right word) about the complications part. When you decide to help someone, you're not morally obligated to that person (thankfully, otherwise we should all stop helping each other) and right now, with what I've seen, I don't feel like Kurt has fallen into a trap. I think he's aware of what he's doing and on which point he's precisely going to help Karofsky, because he's stronger that him on that point. The future will tell us if karofsky will take advantage of the situation but even if this happens, I think kurt can manage it, he already made it clear that any romantic relationship is out of the question, karofsky didn't enjoy but accepted it. Why do we already have to suppose that Karofsky won't hold himself and respect this agreement? It's not something so difficult to do, we're all doing this about Chris lol. No seriously, I think that even Karofsky is aware he's not really in love with Kurt and he was rather clinging to him for what he represents. The fact that karofsky surely needs other support than just Kurt doesn't make Kurt's help meaningless or useless. On the contrary, I think it's the most important one for Karofsky because it is the support he wants, therefore the most psychologically efficient at this point.

Actually, the main thing that bothers me in that danger-oriented vision of their new friendship is that karofsky is locked into what he was. Beside the fact it would be a very negative message (bully can grow up too and they're not doomed to be bully/unstable all their life, PSA part II), it nullifies the impact of a suicide attempt and all the despair at the source of it on the person. If Sebastian can revert in 5 min just by hearing about the suicide, why wouldn't karofsky change radically. He acknowleged what he's living is nothing compared to Kurt's experience and he's the (only) one who told Kurt he has no reason to feel guilty. It's not about forgetting what he has been, on the contrary, his past is precisely the thing that can make him understand the bullying (cause+repercusion) and the difficulty of coming out better than most people. I know, in RL, people don't grow up so easily and most of them don't really change actually (especially if people around them don't let them change) but I think it's a good thing for a TV show to portray things in a brighter way.

When Nick 'caught' Kurt and Karofsky talking to one another, Kurt told him he and Karofsky were just old school mates who happened to bump into one another. Kurt went right back into the closet with Karofsky at that moment. And what did Karofsky do? Karofsky ran away.
That is the basis of a Kurtofsky 'friendship'. Kurt having to hide who he is whenever he's with Dave in public, and Dave running away at the first sight of trouble, leaving it up to Kurt to deal with the problem at hand.

Karofsky just got rejected, of course he would run away. I think 99.99 % of people in the same situation would too, more or less quickly lol. I didn't get the impression Kurt hid who he was at the moment you mention, I think he only sent karofsky right back in the closet, for his sake.

And another problem is that Kurt should not be the one to help Dave. He can carefully be friends with him, but honestly: they don't have that much in common, besides being gay, and not even the same kind of gay (flaming femme<>closeted jock). What would they talk about, football, lady Gaga?
If anyone within ND could help Dave with a friendship it would be Santana. She has much more in common with Dave. They are both gay, they both took their frustration out on others, they both wanted to stay in the closet, they bearded for one another, and they both have a family member that rejected them after being outed.

kurt and Karofsky have in common to have to accept themselves, to be bullied for being gay and that're the points on which Kurt is going to help Karofsky. They're not going to be best friends and share everything, they don't need to. When you have a problem and you need support (friends/relatives/doctors/etc), I don't think the support have to share your passions.
About Santana and from how she's portrayed on Glee: no, I don't think she's the right person to help Karofsky. She was ashamed for being outed but not for being gay (I mean she was lying to the others but not to herself). We never really saw her struggling with bullying (actually, she's still rather on the bully side) or with accepting herself. kurt is far more experienced in the things Karofsky is going through than Santana.

Did anyone else notice how they made Dave smaller in all of this? In seasons 1 and 2 he was the big, tall bully. But now they tried to retcon that too.
First in 'Heart', where it felt like they had put Kurt on a chair booster. And in 'On My Way' the jocks were all very tall, most were taller than Dave. I remember they explicitly were casting a tall jock (Nick). And the bed in the hospital was ridiculously short for a guy of Dave's size.
Not so subtle, he Glee?

So true! I think he had to cross partially his legs. but his body still looks gigantic compared to Kurt.

[fantastica]

^ that height thing - I definitely noticed too! just like they made kurt shorter opposite of blaine when blaine was a older mentor. now he's like a little baby brother when kurt grabbed his hand and walked in the hallway. those suspenders made them look like kindergarden kids.

anyway, I realize that some people have trouble w/ certain characters regardless of how they have obviously changed. It's not just Karofsky having this problem of a fixed negative image that never seem to go away regardless of what happens to him, kurt too has this problem for some people. To these "kurt haters" kurt was never called out for doing the makeover to Rachel, or wanting to live w/ Finn. We don't understand why these viewers are so fixiated on kurt's "negative" traits and refuse to acknowledge any evidence that he's not such a bad kid, or he's definitely grown to be a much better person since then. Similarly, Dave's fans certainly view
Dave as a changed man, and they don't quite understand why other fans, especially those who hated him for what he did to kurt in S2, continue to hold his dark past against him, and interpret all his future actions in a very negative light.

I am not trying to change anybody's minds. I like debates and disagreements. It's a lot more interesting than if everyone has the exact same voice.

[Jellyrolls]

Excellent posts, Shinra and Kim

One thing I think we as Kurtsies sometimes forget is this isn't the Kurt show. The cast is huge, and the writers have a lot of stories to tell in in about 16 or 17 hours a year. With a cast this large, there just isn't enough time to tell every story perfectly, so we have to just accept the awkward stories sometimes, and fill in the blanks in our own heads.

[Guest]

From Tumblr - not sure if true

Because of the skipped week for the State of the Union address, one episode will be cut from the season. As of this moment, season 3 will have 21 episodes instead of the planned 22.

[Jellyrolls]

Hopefully that's not true. I don't want one less episode with Chris.

I can't imagine that they would really cut it because of the State of the Union--they knew the state of the union would happen. Plus, contractually, wouldn't they still have to pay the actor? If they are going to have to pay them anyways, they may as well film an episode.

[Guest]

Tumblr says maybe yes, maybe no - and if there is a dropped ep - then one of the others would become a double. Don't know - just seeing what is out there!

ANOTHER POST

Glee schedule as of March 01 from the Fox press site. It looks like we’re getting a double episode on the 15th or an episode’s being dropped (but they don’t know which), and the hiatus is a week longer.

[fantastica]

according to one of lea's tweets they would only do 21 episodes based on what she said about the number of episodes left to shoot.

[brisallie]

The beautiful thing about helping someone else is precisely when it is not a task we have to do, otherwise, it would be merely a job...

EXACTLY. That what I believe about helping others, help others is not an obligation but is sth that comes from the bottom of your heart I know Kurt felt guilty for what happened to Karofsky but then he talked to him and he realized that it wasn't his fault at all, besides they're friends now or are starting a friendship and for me friends don't have to force you to do anything you don't want to do, if not is a slave-owner relatioship.

according to one of lea's tweets they would only do 21 episodes based on what she said about the number of episodes left to shoot.

One of the episode will last two hours? The episode from May 15th? huh

[Guest]

Fans are hoping it will not be a two hour ep, but 2 back to back eps, which would give them more minutes.

[fantastica]

i don't think it would be a 2hr episodes. i will bet Jellyfish's house for it.

[Jellyrolls]

i don't think it would be a 2hr episodes. i will bet Jellyfish's house for it.

Why do you always bet my house? Bet your own damn house

[fantastica]

^ I like yours better. besides, if I lose your house, I still have mine.

[Guest]

shifty!!!!

[Shinra17]

^ I like yours better. besides, if I lose your house, I still have mine.

[Jellyrolls]

^ I like yours better. besides, if I lose your house, I still have mine.

Well, if you lose my house, I'm going to move in with you. And then I'm going to eat lots of baked beans and broccoli so I become very gasy and stink you out of your house.

[Guest]

Ah friendship, so inspiring!!

[fantastica]

^ I like yours better. besides, if I lose your house, I still have mine.

Well, if you lose my house, I'm going to move in with you. And then I'm going to eat lots of baked beans and broccoli so I become very gasy and stink you out of your house.

don't worry, I had a nosejob done and I can't smell anything! and my cat litter box is right next to the brocolie storage bin! enjoy!

Ah friendship, so inspiring!!

ain't that sweet?

[CloveGlee]

[quote="Shinra17"]

But helping Dave should not be Kurt's task, there are some major complications.
Claire explains it perfectly in her episode recap.

The beautiful thing about helping someone else is precisely when it is not a task we have to do, otherwise, it would be merely a job.

I've read Cloveglee's recap and sorry but I find it a bit dramatic and actually theoretical (I hope it's the right word) about the complications part. When you decide to help someone, you're not morally obligated to that person (thankfully, otherwise we should all stop helping each other) and right now, with what I've seen, I don't feel like Kurt has fallen into a trap. I think he's aware of what he's doing and on which point he's precisely going to help Karofsky, because he's stronger that him on that point. The future will tell us if karofsky will take advantage of the situation but even if this happens, I think kurt can manage it, he already made it clear that any romantic relationship is out of the question, karofsky didn't enjoy but accepted it. Why do we already have to suppose that Karofsky won't hold himself and respect this agreement? It's not something so difficult to do, we're all doing this about Chris lol. No seriously, I think that even Karofsky is aware he's not really in love with Kurt and he was rather clinging to him for what he represents. The fact that karofsky surely needs other support than just Kurt doesn't make Kurt's help meaningless or useless. On the contrary, I think it's the most important one for Karofsky because it is the support he wants, therefore the most psychologically efficient at this point.

Actually, the main thing that bothers me in that danger-oriented vision of their new friendship is that karofsky is locked into what he was. Beside the fact it would be a very negative message (bully can grow up too and they're not doomed to be bully/unstable all their life, PSA part II), it nullifies the impact of a suicide attempt and all the despair at the source of it on the person. If Sebastian can revert in 5 min just by hearing about the suicide, why wouldn't karofsky change radically. He acknowleged what he's living is nothing compared to Kurt's experience and he's the (only) one who told Kurt he has no reason to feel guilty. It's not about forgetting what he has been, on the contrary, his past is precisely the thing that can make him understand the bullying (cause+repercusion) and the difficulty of coming out better than most people. I know, in RL, people don't grow up so easily and most of them don't really change actually (especially if people around them don't let them change) but I think it's a good thing for a TV show to portray things in a brighter way.

When Nick 'caught' Kurt and Karofsky talking to one another, Kurt told him he and Karofsky were just old school mates who happened to bump into one another. Kurt went right back into the closet with Karofsky at that moment. And what did Karofsky do? Karofsky ran away.
That is the basis of a Kurtofsky 'friendship'. Kurt having to hide who he is whenever he's with Dave in public, and Dave running away at the first sight of trouble, leaving it up to Kurt to deal with the problem at hand.

Karofsky just got rejected, of course he would run away. I think 99.99 % of people in the same situation would too, more or less quickly lol. I didn't get the impression Kurt hid who he was at the moment you mention, I think he only sent karofsky right back in the closet, for his sake.

And another problem is that Kurt should not be the one to help Dave. He can carefully be friends with him, but honestly: they don't have that much in common, besides being gay, and not even the same kind of gay (flaming femme<>closeted jock). What would they talk about, football, lady Gaga?
If anyone within ND could help Dave with a friendship it would be Santana. She has much more in common with Dave. They are both gay, they both took their frustration out on others, they both wanted to stay in the closet, they bearded for one another, and they both have a family member that rejected them after being outed.

kurt and Karofsky have in common to have to accept themselves, to be bullied for being gay and that're the points on which Kurt is going to help Karofsky. They're not going to be best friends and share everything, they don't need to. When you have a problem and you need support (friends/relatives/doctors/etc), I don't think the support have to share your passions.
About Santana and from how she's portrayed on Glee: no, I don't think she's the right person to help Karofsky. She was ashamed for being outed but not for being gay (I mean she was lying to the others but not to herself). We never really saw her struggling with bullying (actually, she's still rather on the bully side) or with accepting herself. kurt is far more experienced in the things Karofsky is going through than Santana.

There's quite a bit of debate on both sides about this. Over at TWoP there are quite a number of people who feel the same way about the Kurt/Karofsky thing that I do. And there are others who don't. Milages differ, and that's all right. We do not have to agree on everything.

The thing that set off alarm bells for me is that I don't think David's really acting all that differently. He's still fixated on Kurt, for the fourth time now. His solution to the stress is still violence. He's still very troubled and he's making wildly inappropriate decisions with terrible consequences. Quinn's comment about suicides being selfish people who are trying to punish the people around them is spot on. Right up until David tried to commit suicide, Kurt wanted no part of him at all. He ignored NINE phone messages. That's some serious go-away-and-leave-me-alone. But in the end, David got Kurt to visit him and offer help and friendship.

Kurt does not have the background or expertise to counsel a boy as troubled as Karofsky. What he needed was a great conversation with a good shrink, like we saw for Emma earlier this year.

[fantastica]

I'd rather that hospital scene than dave going to see a shrink. I mean i consider dave as an accessory character. I don't want him to take a big chunk of screentime to have his own story arc complete w/ councelling w/ a shrink, etc, just so they can give his suicide arc a more realistic treatment. I assume dave will seek some sort of counselling off camera, and that's perfectly fine w/ me. I really don't want to see him on my screen unless he's with Kurt, because I reallly only want to see Kurt, and I prefer to see Chris acting opposite max than DC.

[CloveGlee]

I'd rather that hospital scene than dave going to see a shrink. I mean i consider dave as an accessory character (probably the wrong word to say but you know what I mean). I don't want him to take a big chunk of screentime to have his own story arc, just so they can give his suicide arc a more realistic treatment. I assume dave will seek some sort of counselling off camera, and that's perfectly fine w/ me. I really don't want to see him on my screen unless he's with Kurt, because I reallly only want to see Kurt, and I prefer to see Chris acting opposite max than DC.

OK, then Kurt should come to the hospital with his father right behind him.

And he should give him information about people from the Trevor Project. See, this issue is so important, I think it really does need a very realistic treatment. They can't take something this dark and execute it this sloppily.

[Guest]

Dave is coming off a 72 hour suicide watch and will be assigned counseling by the hospital - standard procedure. Suicide patients are in so much pain they are simply trying to stop it. They are not trying to punish anyone else, only relieve what they cannot live with. Yes, Kurt feels guilty for ignoring those cries for help, I imagine we all would. But Dave needs a friend and Kurt is WILLING to be that. Any psychiatrist will tell you that is what Dave needs most right now.

[fantastica]

I don't find Dave threatening anymore. However if he's in my real life I would never bother to talk to him at all. but that's just me. I am not Kurt.

[Shinra17]

There's quite a bit of debate on both sides about this. Over at TWoP there are quite a number of people who feel the same way about the Kurt/Karofsky thing that I do. And there are others who don't. Milages differ, and that's all right. We do not have to agree on everything.

The thing that set off alarm bells for me is that I don't think David's really acting all that differently. He's still fixated on Kurt, for the fourth time now. His solution to the stress is still violence. He's still very troubled and he's making wildly inappropriate decisions with terrible consequences. Quinn's comment about suicides being selfish people who are trying to punish the people around them is spot on. Right up until David tried to commit suicide, Kurt wanted no part of him at all. He ignored NINE phone messages. That's some serious go-away-and-leave-me-alone. But in the end, David got Kurt to visit him and offer help and friendship.

Kurt does not have the background or expertise to counsel a boy as troubled as Karofsky. What he needed was a great conversation with a good shrink, like we saw for Emma earlier this year.

That's the point I can't agree. Indeed Kurt visits Karofsky but for me, Karofsky was surprised, he didn't expect it and I think he really believed Kurt has abandoned him. I don't know if it's what you really mean or if I misunderstand sth because of the language but what I get from that bold line is Karofsky planned his suicide in order to have kurt visit him (which implies he planned to fail his suicide as well)?
Karofsky, for sure, won't change his temperament but I believe he was sincere in that scene in the hospital, so I don't think he will be a danger for Kurt, no more than he was a danger for his family or his friends before.
Kurt is not a professional helper but again this point is not important for me. He's not supposed to replace them and he has sth the others don't have: the trust and the wish of karofsky to be supported by him. It's like a placebo in a medical trial, it can bring miracles.

[CloveGlee]

There's quite a bit of debate on both sides about this. Over at TWoP there are quite a number of people who feel the same way about the Kurt/Karofsky thing that I do. And there are others who don't. Milages differ, and that's all right. We do not have to agree on everything.

The thing that set off alarm bells for me is that I don't think David's really acting all that differently. He's still fixated on Kurt, for the fourth time now. His solution to the stress is still violence. He's still very troubled and he's making wildly inappropriate decisions with terrible consequences. Quinn's comment about suicides being selfish people who are trying to punish the people around them is spot on. Right up until David tried to commit suicide, Kurt wanted no part of him at all. He ignored NINE phone messages. That's some serious go-away-and-leave-me-alone. But in the end, David got Kurt to visit him and offer help and friendship.

Kurt does not have the background or expertise to counsel a boy as troubled as Karofsky. What he needed was a great conversation with a good shrink, like we saw for Emma earlier this year.

That's the point I can't agree. Indeed Kurt visits Karofsky but for me, Karofsky was surprised, he didn't expect it and I think he really believed Kurt has abandoned him. I don't know if it's what you really mean or if I misunderstand sth because of the language but what I get from that bold line is Karofsky planned his suicide in order to have kurt visit him (which implies he planned to fail his suicide as well)?
Karofsky, for sure, won't change his temperament but I believe he was sincere in that scene in the hospital, so I don't think he will be a danger for Kurt, no more than he was a danger for his family or his friends before.
Kurt is not a professional helper but again this point is not important for me. He's not supposed to replace them and he has sth the others don't have: the trust and the wish of karofsky to be supported by him. It's like a placebo in a medical trial, it can bring miracles.

These issues aren't always clearly planned and deliberately thought out. No, I do not think Karofsky faked a suicide attempt to get Kurt to visit him. However, the script manipulated the situation to make Kurt feel morally obligated to befriend somebody with whom he has had a consistently unhealthy relationship. The ONLY connection between the boys is David's pain, and in order to respond to David's pain, Kurt has to lay aside his own. They have no positive memories to draw from, no shared interests. They don't hang out for fun. They have never had a single encounter that was just pleasant small talk, and this is mostly because David is such a head case. This is not really a friendship.

That being said, these are also not real people. If they never write David into the script again, it just won't matter, because Kurt does not have a problem with Karofsky unless it becomes a major plot point. They have way too much other stuff to get through and I doubt we will ever see Karofsky again.

[fantastica]

Kurt did say in the breadstix that he wanted to be friend (or maybe he meant the most he could do was being a regular friend, instead of a romantic interest). He also said "I like you..." - although I hope he was only saying this to comfort Dave after hte rejection. Kurt liking Dave is a big stretch for me.

but then, Dave is more interesting then Blaine so...

well, this is just a stupid tv show. I am not gonna pulling my hair out for this.

p.s. wow, I am a "wood nymth" now! I hope the next level is "snow white".

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