Re: Kurt Hummel Snark & Bark Thread--Part 5

[sahhar]

They have to do sexy-dragging, because they know they aren't going to get Lea to be able to do realistic dance moves. I can't blame her, I have two left feet, and difficulty walking a straight line. Anyway, to cover up her inadequacies, they try to cover it up with sexy moves. Pre-teens will fall for that, because they believe what they are told. We will be told by everyone not Cassandra, that it was fabulous and hot, and totally sexy. No one will believe Cassie because she is a drinker, and therefore all opinions to the negative are disregarded, but watch how quickly their tune will change when Cassie drinks the Kool-aid and sees how wonderful in all ways Rachel is. Then she will be lauded as a paragon and wonderful teacher, so much better than Will (who still gave her just about everything she wanted).

This is also the show that gives Brittney the same angry-sex dancing routines. I wish they would have her do a sweet ballet or slow jazz type number. Just like belting, not everything has to have the energy of a thousand suns to be remarkable and touching. Until then I will always prefer Mike Chang's dancing, because you always got a love of the dance from his performance, not I'm doing my job and I'm really hot when I do it.

I will never, ever understand why they do not even come close to giving Kurt fangirls what they want. I mean, tumblr would break, twitter would break, prayers of thanks would come from all denominations, and the atheists would question a higher power, because something had to make Chris so gorgeous. That would be the reaction of Kurt in a wife beater, let alone shirtless. I don't need to see all sorts of skin, but Rachel sending Blaine a congratulations text because she catches Kurt coming out of the shower would not go amiss. Better yet, Kurt getting in a modeling photo op, and the whole gang looking at the magazine in the Glee room doing double takes and giving Blaine sly glances would be nice. In the end it is all about money, so why aren't they capitalizing on Chris' current standing. Author, writer, actor, singer, and pretty good dancer.

I've decided men must be in charge of this decision at FOX, because women wouldn't be so stupid.

Bless this post.

[ColferInspired]

I have been saying this for ages that they wanted Darren to be more popular than Chris and Blaine as well, but not many were agreeing with me.

I am starting to think Ryan doesn't think that way. He knows how talented Chris is and he would want to support another gay talent.

I think it is all Fox's doing, and i hate it.

The Boy Next Door crashed tumblr for over two hours. Blaine's shower scene never did that.

[sahhar]

I have been saying this for ages that they wanted Darren to be more popular than Chris and Blaine as well, but not many were agreeing with me.

I am starting to think Ryan doesn't think that way. He knows how talented Chris is and he would want to support another gay talent.

I think it is all Fox's doing, and i hate it.

The Boy Next Door crashed tumblr for over two hours. Blaine's shower scene never did that.

If Ryan loves Chris so much and wants to write better for him, then he should cast him in American Horror Story pronto. Showtime is a network that has no limits for anything.

[ColferInspired]

I have been saying this for ages that they wanted Darren to be more popular than Chris and Blaine as well, but not many were agreeing with me.

I am starting to think Ryan doesn't think that way. He knows how talented Chris is and he would want to support another gay talent.

I think it is all Fox's doing, and i hate it.

The Boy Next Door crashed tumblr for over two hours. Blaine's shower scene never did that.

If Ryan loves Chris so much and wants to write better for him, then he should cast him in American Horror Story pronto. Showtime is a network that has no limits for anything.

But isn't Chris contracted to Fox for so many years?

It would be lovely it that would happen though.

[tanita_mors]

AHS is on FX not Showtime. FX is part of Fox, and yes they are closer to cable channels like HBO and Showtime, then broadcast ones like CBS, ABC, NBC.

Initially, Chris had a 7 year contract, don't know if that has been amended when he renegotiated his salary. I guess they do control if he can act on other tv shows and networks, particularly if it's his contract.

[Delight]

The 'Oops' performance is pissing me off.
NYADA is turning into a joke with the pop songs and the bad quality of the dances in dance class.


The least they can do is try to keep up the appearance that NYADA is a musical theatre school, not an MTV show.

And that dance class is supposed to be about..... dancing, right? Could have fooled me.
I'm waiting for Cassandra to teach them pole-dancing next, since they've got the "being-dragged-and-carried-around-while-wriggling-sexy" routine down pat.
Such a good dance teacher.

Gee, an exclusive college of musical theatre doesn't actually offer any teaching about musical threatre. Only on Glee, folks. I suppose we should stop getting surprised by each new evidence of ridiculousness of this show.

[Glorfindel]

The 'Oops' performance also pisses me off because it shows Brody touching Rachel's crotch, and other sexy touchy stuff, when the gay couples on the show are so physically restricted we can't even tell they are a couple.

[Ranwing]

There are so many things wrong with the Oops segement that I don't know where to begin.

Let's start with Rachel's "dancing". I know that the show had been trying to tell us for ages that Rachel had been winning dance contests since she was in diapers and gave lots of canon evidence that she is that good (such as not having to participate in Booty Camp). The problem? Lea Michelle just can't deliver on that. No matter how they try to splice her performances, her dancing is - to put it gently - subpar. Not Finn Hudson levels of bad, but it's clear that Lea cannot dance and the show had been able to mask this for quite some time by just keeping her choreography so basic that with better dancers around her (Naya, Chris, Harry and Heather) she was able to look better. But now the show has placed her in a setting where there is just no way to hide her subpar dancing. I'm guessing that we are going to get some kind of minor retcon (an implication that Rachel's talents in this area were overstated and not up to standards at NYADA) or as Glorifindal suggested, we're just going to have to close our eyes to what we're actually seeing on screen. My preference is for the first option, as this will humanize Rachel and make her a real underdog in this area. Let's give this character a real challenge to overcome and have her abilities actually match the actress's ability to fulfill. Giving Rachel a serious performance deficit will actually make her more relatable by bringing her a bit down to earth.

The subject matter - I have no issue with the sexy lesson that Rachel needs to learn because as a performer, she will need to be able to pull off characters that aren't all innocent, wide-eyed ingenues. Being able to be comfortable with inhabiting characters vastly different from herself. When I did theater, I played chracters ranging from sweet innocent vigins to baudy, fierce women (like Katherine in Taming of the Schrew) and I played several male characters (Mercuttio from Romeo and Julie and Iago from Othello). Rachel herself doesn't have to become a sex pot in order to play sexy, but she has to embrace it and make that inate characteristic that makes a character "sexy" as part of herself so she can call on it without looking artificial. If I can use a comparrison from another show, on So You Think You Can Dance years ago there was a ballroom dancer named Anya who positively smouldered sexuality. Even when standing still, that quality was there and when she called on it for her dancing... Yozaa! This season there was another dancer who was able to be sexy when she danced, but the moment the music stopped she went right to her "I'm just a sweet innocent Morman girl from Utah" and it became obviously just how contrived her sexiness was when she danced. Oops was especially bad because for all Rachel's writhing, mewling and groaning, I just didn't buy it. That performance didn't scream sex to me. It screamed that Rachel was trying way too hard.

[fantastica]

I will never, ever understand why they do not even come close to giving Kurt fangirls what they want. I mean, tumblr would break, twitter would break, prayers of thanks would come from all denominations, and the atheists would question a higher power, because something had to make Chris so gorgeous. That would be the reaction of Kurt in a wife beater, let alone shirtless. I don't need to see all sorts of skin, but Rachel sending Blaine a congratulations text because she catches Kurt coming out of the shower would not go amiss. Better yet, Kurt getting in a modeling photo op, and the whole gang looking at the magazine in the Glee room doing double takes and giving Blaine sly glances would be nice. In the end it is all about money, so why aren't they capitalizing on Chris' current standing. Author, writer, actor, singer, and pretty good dancer.

I've decided men must be in charge of this decision at FOX, because women wouldn't be so stupid.

TPTB and obviously Murphy himself believe that effeminate men are not sexually attractive. They think that what make a man attractive is his masculinity and effeminate guy just don't have that (or else they won't be called "effeminate"). They are always the punching bags and doormats and no women ever hit on them (not even men - only teh other way around). Show me one movie or tv show in which a woman says an effeminate male is "hot" or sexually attractive.

Murphy himself dated football players in high school. He seems to be really into the macho type of guys. The New Norml again show that pattern where the straight passing gay is superior to the effeminate one. It's not just Murphy or Fox or the writers w/ this type of impression, but it's a social thing.

[Ranwing]

TPTB and obviously Murphy himself believe that effeminate men are not sexually attractive. They think that what make a man attractive is his masculinity and effeminate guy just don't have that (or else they won't be called "effeminate"). They are always the punching bags and doormats and no women ever hit on them (not even men - only teh other way around). Show me one movie or tv show in which a woman says an effeminate male is "hot" or sexually attractive.

I would love to introduce Ryan Murphy to the entire yaoi fandom, where men with vaguely feminine qualities are absolutely adored by and lusted over by female fans even to the point that they will give very masculine and strong male characters more feminine qualities. There's a great Japanese term for the kind of male that these girls swoon over - Bishōnen. Basically it translates to "beautiful boy" and they are male characters with somewhat androgynous features. On the Glee Tropes site, Kurt is listed as checking off all the qualities of this type and it is seen as a positive. These vaguely feminine male characters are certainly considered "hot" by the female fans.

In my mind, it's the fact that Chris is gay that is keeping TPTB from promoting him as a sex symbol and instead focus on Darren. Even though both actors are playing gay characters, Darren is straight and therefore to some is a more realistic object for sexual fantasy by female fans. It's the old myth that women have to imagine the object of their affection being sexually available to them (even if just a fantasy) and a gay actor ruins that fantasy because he strips away the illusion that even if the fan and actor met, there is no chance of any reciprocal feelings. To put it more bluntly, a straight actor allows female fans the safe fantasy that they might stand a chance of having him for themselves.

This is, of course, hog wash. I have adored many a gay actor, singer and character and didn't have to resort to imagining that I was the one he was kissing. Adam Lambert has a legion of adoring female fans who positively wet themselves whenever he kissed his male guitarist on stage. Some women don't need to imagine the hot gay guy kissing them. They just want to see the hot guys kiss.

Murphy himself dated football players in high school. He seems to be really into the macho type of guys. The New Norml again show that pattern where the straight passing gay is superior to the effeminate one. It's not just Murphy or Fox or the writers w/ this type of impression, but it's a social thing.

Considering that Murphy isn't exactly the most masculine individual on the planet, it doesn't surprise me that his sexual interest were men with more typical masculine characteristics that he has.

Society is a bitch, but we see that those that don't confirm to the very rigid gender traits that we associate as being typically masculine or typically feminine tend to have a difficult time. It's easy to overlook the discomfort you might have with a gay man if he acts and looks just like every straight man. Or a lesbian if she's a very beautiful and feminine woman who dresses in a feminine manner and wears makeup. Those that bend the gender norms a bit will always be viewed more harshly. We haven't reached the point yet where we see gender as being more fluid and that many traits that we insist upon assigning to one gender over the other aren't mutually exclusive.

The problem with how this relates to Kurt and Blaine is that Kurt is not really an effeminate man. He dresses in a somewhat flamboyant manner at times and has a high pitched voice, but everything else? He's a touch character. He stands up to bullies and didn't shy away from physical confrontations. He's a skilled mechanic. He was a talented athlete. He is emotionally reserved (something we tend to associate with masculine figures). Blaine might be somewhat more conservative in his dress, but he's more flamboyant in his behavior. He has tons of little mannerisms that we tend to see as "girly". His interests aren't any more masculine than Kurt's but becuase he has a deeper voice, he gives the illusion of being more of a guy's guy and therefore, more socially acceptable.

[zuppid]

The 'Oops' performance also pisses me off because it shows Brody touching Rachel's crotch, and other sexy touchy stuff, when the gay couples on the show are so physically restricted we can't even tell they are a couple.

Society considers a kiss between two boys more disturbing than THAT perfomance?Come on!

[Divalicious]

It goes back to something I've read somewhere this week. If the sex doesn't matter, i.e. friends with benefits, or a performance, it is a-okay. If it is between people that love each other, are attracted to each other, and want to physically demonstrate that love, hell no, unacceptable, if they are two boys. Two hot girls, not so bad, but make it playful. Lovely that people all for higher "morals" push emotionless and unmeaningful sexual acts than actual acts of love.

[brisallie]

^
For years I've thought that men can't express their affection freely, not matter if they're only friends because immediately people look at them as it were something awkward, so if in addition they're gays, is worse. But in the case of girls , I think is less awkward if two friends walk hand by hand in the streets because people don't wonder if they're lesbians or not.

[ColferGirl]

The problem with how this relates to Kurt and Blaine is that Kurt is not really an effeminate man. He dresses in a somewhat flamboyant manner at times and has a high pitched voice, but everything else? He's a touch character. He stands up to bullies and didn't shy away from physical confrontations. He's a skilled mechanic. He was a talented athlete. He is emotionally reserved (something we tend to associate with masculine figures). Blaine might be somewhat more conservative in his dress, but he's more flamboyant in his behavior. He has tons of little mannerisms that we tend to see as "girly". His interests aren't any more masculine than Kurt's but becuase he has a deeper voice, he gives the illusion of being more of a guy's guy and therefore, more socially acceptable.

Actually, I do think Kurt is effeminate. Well, really I think he's a pretty even blend of masculine and feminine traits and interests, but his effemininity is definitely there. Then again, what exactly is effeminacy? Is it having interests that are considered to be primarily feminine? Personalities or character traits that are considered to be primarily for women? I'm admittedly pretty ignorant, so I'm still not sure. But if it's any of those, then Kurt still falls into that category.

Anyway, what I adore about Kurt is - if we must use labels for traits and interests, as much as I hate that to begin with - is how he's a perfect mix of feminine and masculine. He's strong, protective, brave, independent, usually mature, clever - which are typically considered "masculine". But he's also very sweet, extremely compassionate, forgiving, is considerate and caring, is emotional and expressive and an unashamed cryer - "feminine" traits. He's emotionally reserved and often quieter with his emotions, just like you mentioned, but his tendency to openly and easily cry, happy or sad, is associated with feminine figures, thus feminine. He's also a wonderful mix of masculine and feminine interests. Yes he's a good mechanic, and a good athlete (or at least, a good kicker). But he also loves fashion, cooking, musicals, sewing - has moisturizing routines, really cares about his skin and his appearance, refers to himself as one of the girls when with the girls (like the our periods comment), he identifies with the heroines of musicals, his idols are women. These are all usually considered feminine. He wears male and female clothing. Behavior-wise, Kurt is soft-spoken, sometimes gossipy, very nurturing, and it's true he doesn't shy from confrontation but he's never physical about it like the other boys (Sam, Finn, even Blaine) - he's never thrown a punch or shoved anyone, when he's angry he hurts with words alone, not fists. Those could be considered feminine, too. As for flamboyancy...I agree Kurt isn't really flamboyant, which goes hand in hand with his quieter, reserved nature, but I don't personally think flamboyancy is always part of being effeminate, so I'd say he's still feminine even without it. At least, if we go by the criteria of feminine traits and interests = feminine, just as masculine traits and interests = masculine.

One of the (many) reasons I love Kurt is how he blends the gender lines, and does it effortlessly, and his pride in it. He's all of these and more and that's what makes him so real, so complex and relatable and full of depth without even going into his personal journey and relationships, which just makes him even more human and dimensional. And I'm proud of him for blurring those lines. I think it's wonderful.

Sorry if this is coming off as a bit defensive....I just get tired of people trying to argue *against* Kurt's effeminacy. Like they're trying to explain it away, brush it under the rug like it's not there, or barely there, at all....for me it comes off like people (not you, I'm sure this isn't your intention at all, but some across fandom) think it's a bad thing and so they do their best to find ways Kurt is more masculine instead. They defend his masculinity vehemently, and never his femininity, and either way it shouldn't matter. I'd rather celebrate Kurt for all that he is. But Kurt's feminine traits are part of what I, at least, love best about him, so responses like that always make me a bit sad....

[Glorfindel]

^THIS.

Kurt is effeminate, and embraces it, but he's still a guy.
That's how I've always seen him. He's a wonderful mixture of both, and I love him for it.

Neither female or male (traits) is inferior to the other, so it really doesn't matter how effeminate or masculine Kurt is, or Blaine in comparison, except when it comes to being accepted by others, unfortunately.
The problem is that Glee is sending very mixed signales about that, with both Kurt and Blaine. I also can see that sometimes Blaine cannot pass for straight and acts very effeminate (and Kurt can act very masculine at times), but he still doesn't get the crap that Kurt gets (because being visibly gay aka effeminate seems to be at the root of all Kurt's problems).
On the contrary: Blaine always wins and Kurt loses. And I guess that's why this comparison keeps popping up, and with it the 'defense' that Kurt is less effeminate than Blaine, and therefore Blaine should lose or get crap sometimes too.

I also think there is a difference between being outwardly effeminate (like Blaine sometimes shows) and inwardly effeminate. Kurt feels and experiences things that happen to him more like a girl, and in that way he's very effeminate (more than Blaine), even when he dresses more subdued. OTOH Kurt has very traditional values when it comes to eg. a man defending a woman and male/female courtesy. As I said: he's a wonderful mixture of both.

To say it in Kurt's own words: "I am not a box: there's more than 4 sides to me."

[ChrisColferFan1]

i agree with the two above posts.

[ladydianab]

I could be wrong but I never see anything effeminate that Chris does ( the person. Kurt yes can be effeminate) or says. He seems all guy to me. Sometimes I wonder if he is even gay. Maybe when he auditioned and they made the character gay he was too afraid to not be gay in case he would lose his job. Doubt it though. Whichever, his orientation it is totally cool and ultimately not any of my business.

[ColferInspired]

I could be wrong but I never see anything effeminate that Chris does ( the person. Kurt yes can be effeminate) or says. He seems all guy to me. Sometimes I wonder if he is even gay. Maybe when he auditioned and they made the character gay he was too afraid to not be gay in case he would lose his job. Doubt it though. Whichever, his orientation it is totally cool and ultimately not any of my business.

From what I remember Fox didn't want Chris to come out, but ones in the media especially the gay media where the ones that were already trying to out him.

When Chris admitted that he was gay on Chelsea Lately, was the bravest thing he did. I'm sure Fox weren't happy with him after that.

And you are right, you could never call Chris effeminate.

[ChrisColferFan1]

I could be wrong but I never see anything effeminate that Chris does ( the person. Kurt yes can be effeminate) or says. He seems all guy to me. Sometimes I wonder if he is even gay. Maybe when he auditioned and they made the character gay he was too afraid to not be gay in case he would lose his job. Doubt it though. Whichever, his orientation it is totally cool and ultimately not any of my business.

From what I remember Fox didn't want Chris to come out, but ones in the media especially the gay media where the ones that were already trying to out him.

When Chris admitted that he was gay on Chelsea Lately, was the bravest thing he did. I'm sure Fox weren't happy with him after that.

And you are right, you could never call Chris effeminate.

I agree, with the entire above post.

[zuppid]

why? someone said Chris is effeminate?

[sheny]

In my mind, it's the fact that Chris is gay that is keeping TPTB from promoting him as a sex symbol and instead focus on Darren. Even though both actors are playing gay characters, Darren is straight and therefore to some is a more realistic object for sexual fantasy by female fans. It's the old myth that women have to imagine the object of their affection being sexually available to them (even if just a fantasy) and a gay actor ruins that fantasy because he strips away the illusion that even if the fan and actor met, there is no chance of any reciprocal feelings. To put it more bluntly, a straight actor allows female fans the safe fantasy that they might stand a chance of having him for themselves.

This is, of course, hog wash. I have adored many a gay actor, singer and character and didn't have to resort to imagining that I was the one he was kissing. Adam Lambert has a legion of adoring female fans who positively wet themselves whenever he kissed his male guitarist on stage. Some women don't need to imagine the hot gay guy kissing them. They just want to see the hot guys kiss.

I've decided men must be in charge of this decision at FOX, because women wouldn't be so stupid.

So true. I guess that's what most straight man believe. They stubbornly think they know what women like and want, but as always they are WRONG. Women can feel attraction to any man no matter of his sexuality. If the object of interest is good looking, smart, charming, etc. what does it matter if he is gay or straight.

[zuppid]

[quote="sheny"]

So true. I guess that's what most straight man believe. They stubbornly think they know what women like and want, but as always they are WRONG. Women can feel attraction to any man no matter of his sexuality. If the object of interest is good looking, smart, charming, etc. what does it matter if he is gay or straight.

So true!But I think this generation of brave young successfull gay actors can help to change things...Matt Bomer,Neil Patrick Harris,Chris Colfer...they are breaking the stereotype greatly

[Divalicious]

Loving all these posts, Kurt does embrace both sides, and accepts that fully about himself. Wade identifies as a woman, so Unique is totally effeminate. Blaine does identify as a male, but I see him being more effeminate than Kurt a lot of the time, but that is never acknowledged, as TPTB seem to fear the effeminacy stigmata, balderdash.

It does come down to Kurt having a high voice and not using violence to get his point across. Oh, and being fashion forward. Kurt doesn't put labels on anyone, his lecture about Glee being accepting when Wade wasn't embraced as Unique, and he expects the same for himself. I have always thought Kurt was the strongest Glee kid. He didn't seek popularity like most of them, or get things handed to them like some of them. He faced lost like none of the others did, emotionally and faced the loss of his potential being acknowledged . He stayed a team member until violence made him leave (and ITunes made him stay away longer) and didn't crumbled like the TT did, by leaving to force the Glee club to give them more spotlight. He does it all with grace and dignity, and if that isn't what a man is, it is what one should be. You know this guy, once your friend, will be there through thick and thin, dependable. That is why we fan so hard, not just his blossoming good looks, because we admire the person within.

And TPTB think we will be satisfied with beefcake showing abs, and a nice smile? Thank you, no, give me Kurt. Although losing the shirt would be okay too.

[ChrisColferFan1]

Loving all these posts, Kurt does embrace both sides, and accepts that fully about himself. Wade identifies as a woman, so Unique is totally effeminate. Blaine does identify as a male, but I see him being more effeminate than Kurt a lot of the time, but that is never acknowledged, as TPTB seem to fear the effeminacy stigmata, balderdash.

It does come down to Kurt having a high voice and not using violence to get his point across. Oh, and being fashion forward. Kurt doesn't put labels on anyone, his lecture about Glee being accepting when Wade wasn't embraced as Unique, and he expects the same for himself. I have always thought Kurt was the strongest Glee kid. He didn't seek popularity like most of them, or get things handed to them like some of them. He faced lost like none of the others did, emotionally and faced the loss of his potential being acknowledged . He stayed a team member until violence made him leave (and ITunes made him stay away longer) and didn't crumbled like the TT did, by leaving to force the Glee club to give them more spotlight. He does it all with grace and dignity, and if that isn't what a man is, it is what one should be. You know this guy, once your friend, will be there through thick and thin, dependable. That is why we fan so hard, not just his blossoming good looks, because we admire the person within.

And TPTB think we will be satisfied with beefcake showing abs, and a nice smile? Thank you, no, give me Kurt. Although losing the shirt would be okay too.

good points.

[Ranwing]

I also think there is a difference between being outwardly effeminate (like Blaine sometimes shows) and inwardly effeminate. Kurt feels and experiences things that happen to him more like a girl, and in that way he's very effeminate (more than Blaine), even when he dresses more subdued. OTOH Kurt has very traditional values when it comes to eg. a man defending a woman and male/female courtesy. As I said: he's a wonderful mixture of both.

To say it in Kurt's own words: "I am not a box: there's more than 4 sides to me."

What I always loved about Kurt so much was that he was hard to pigeonhole. Is he effeminate in many ways? Of course he is, and I adore his sensativity, his love for fashion and the caring and nurturing he shows to those that he cares about. And then Kurt defies the normal characteristics that we might associate with effeminate men. He is his own catagory as an amazingly strong, fabulous creature. And just when we think we have him figured out, he surprises us anew. To quote Blaine, Kurt zigs when we expect him to zag.

Kurt is like Chris is a lot of ways, in that he's not willing to settle for the expectations of how others see him. He charts his own path as it suits him. He'll embrace the qualities that sometimes make other men uncomfortable while at the still time remaining true to himself. It's no surprise that so many find his character so empowering. The show is filled with characters that allow who they are to be dictated by others. Kurt is the only one who keeps to his true core.

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