Re: 3x22 "Goodbye" Watch & Discussion thread

[Delight]

Okay, I post it...

...Ryan Murphy is being interviewed by Gold Derby today (afternoon Pacific Time), and you can post questions you'd like the interviewer to ask him here (you have to register the site)...

Ignoring RM is the best attack against him that I can manage right now

[Emile]

^Yah, I honestly don't care to post anything. But, since a few people did ask, maybe if the question is polite but direct, we can get some interesting answers. (no, probably not LOL but still)

[fantastica]

the following quote was from the appreciation thread so I moved it here for appropriate responses:

Saw this amazing thing on someone's tumblr and wanna share it here:

Glee, Season 3 Re-Do, How It Should Have Gone Down: Kurt getting into NYADA

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Source

Sigh ...why can't these fans be the writers instead?

kurt having tons of backup plan is VERY in character. he's the kind of person who would send applications to every single first-tier performing arts schools and design schools, if not more. Kurt is meticulous about everything. He plans, he organizes and he thinks. the Kurt who handles NYADA is so unlike him, and for someone like him who had a superior attitude to apply for LimaBeans is just a joke. Maybe he's applying for the CEO position. The writers are willing to bend and twist and destroy any character in order to create artificial drama that's not even convincing.

[brisallie]

the following quote was from the appreciation thread so I moved it here for appropriate responses:

Saw this amazing thing on someone's tumblr and wanna share it here:

Glee, Season 3 Re-Do, How It Should Have Gone Down: Kurt getting into NYADA

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_
_

Source

Sigh ...why can't these fans be the writers instead?

.. The writers are willing to bend and twist and destroy any character in order to create artificial drama that's not even convincing.

First I wanna cry because there're fans who're BETTER writers then glee writers themselves ¬¬ and is a pity!

Second is there any possibility to create drama without destroying the characters? I know whilst there're more tears shed, is better . However I'm not so sure if that what people wanna see, that why nowadays fans have no idea if categorize Glee as drama or comedy.

[fantastica]

It's "comedy" because it has so many WTF moments you can't take this show seriously. Instead you have to treat it as a joke. thus the "comedy".

[Delight]

The writers are willing to bend and twist and destroy any character in order to create artificial drama that's not even convincing.

THIS. So much this. Kurt wouldn't be so foolish as to put all his eggs in one basket, so to speak. He's aware of being 'woefully thin on extra-curriculars' (which, as some of us had already argued in the past, isn't really true); and he knew what he needed to do to increase his chances of getting into his dream school. Kurt would've had back-up schools and plans that extended beyond 'run for senior class president' (fail!) and 'audition for school play' (fail!). He would've fought harder for a singing role on WSS. He would've fought harder to get a more significant singing role in the choir competitions (instead of being content with the peanuts they've thrown at him). The writers deliberately made Kurt's situation 'hopeless' for the sake of drama, not even caring that all these things made Kurt appear pathetic and maybe even a bit foolish and over-ambitious to the audience. They had a scene where Kurt was already labeling the stuff in his room, deciding which things he would bring with him to NYC, before his audition, before he even knew of his chances of getting into NYADA. Was it really NYADA or nothing for Kurt? It's just too ridiculous to contemplate.

As tanita_mors had once said, Kurt had never been, and should never be pathetic. It's unfortunate that the writers on the show were determined to make him so (e.g. Kurt dwelling in self-pity at Breadstix in Yes/No, Kurt singing 'I Have Nothing' in response to a bf who had publicly shamed him of cheating).

[Glorfindel]

Excellent post.

They don't realize how much damage they do to a character and his/her position in the show with these contrived 'problems'. Making Kurt's resume thin had no effect on the outcome in the end: Kurt got his audition letter anyway. But it did influence how people perceive Kurt and judge his ambition and chances.

The same is true for Kurt not getting into NYADA. They may have done that simply for the cliffhanger, and next season Kurt will be in NYADA anyway (as the 1st on the wait list), but it will have damaged his talent level, and he will always be less than Rachel, the girl who choked and got in right away.


I also agree about Kurt never being pathetic. He has taken so many kicks in the nads and he always overcame. He can sulk a bit at times, but he never gives up.

[brisallie]

It's "comedy" because it has so many WTF moments you can't take this show seriously. Instead you have to treat it as a joke. thus the "comedy".

You're right. I forgot those wtf moments. Thanks.

THIS. So much this. Kurt wouldn't be so foolish as to put all his eggs in one basket, so to speak. He's aware of being 'woefully thin on extra-curriculars' (which, as some of us had already argued in the past, isn't really true); and he knew what he needed to do to increase his chances of getting into his dream school. Kurt would've had back-up schools and plans that extended beyond 'run for senior class president' (fail!) and 'audition for school play' (fail!). He would've fought harder for a singing role on WSS. He would've fought harder to get a more significant singing role in the choir competitions (instead of being content with the peanuts they've thrown at him). The writers deliberately made Kurt's situation 'hopeless' for the sake of drama, not even caring that all these things made Kurt appear pathetic and maybe even a bit foolish and over-ambitious to the audience. They had a scene where Kurt was already labeling the stuff in his room, deciding which things he would bring with him to NYC, before his audition, before he even knew of his chances of getting into NYADA. Was it really NYADA or nothing for Kurt? It's just too ridiculous to contemplate.

As tanita_mors had once said, Kurt had never been, and should never be pathetic. It's unfortunate that the writers on the show were determined to make him so (e.g. Kurt dwelling in self-pity at Breadstix in Yes/No, Kurt singing 'I Have Nothing' in response to a bf who had publicly shamed him of cheating).

^
THIS

In my headcanon, NYADA wasn't the only place he applied; I meant in RL people applied to differents colleges because nothing is safe in this life, at least you're obssesed with an specific college but if you're smart you should know is not safe. In my headcanon he has a plan B, still can't believe he has nothing now.

[E-ko]

The writers are willing to bend and twist and destroy any character in order to create artificial drama that's not even convincing.

THIS. So much this. Kurt wouldn't be so foolish as to put all his eggs in one basket, so to speak. He's aware of being 'woefully thin on extra-curriculars' (which, as some of us had already argued in the past, isn't really true); and he knew what he needed to do to increase his chances of getting into his dream school. Kurt would've had back-up schools and plans that extended beyond 'run for senior class president' (fail!) and 'audition for school play' (fail!). He would've fought harder for a singing role on WSS. He would've fought harder to get a more significant singing role in the choir competitions (instead of being content with the peanuts they've thrown at him). The writers deliberately made Kurt's situation 'hopeless' for the sake of drama, not even caring that all these things made Kurt appear pathetic and maybe even a bit foolish and over-ambitious to the audience. They had a scene where Kurt was already labeling the stuff in his room, deciding which things he would bring with him to NYC, before his audition, before he even knew of his chances of getting into NYADA. Was it really NYADA or nothing for Kurt? It's just too ridiculous to contemplate.

As tanita_mors had once said, Kurt had never been, and should never be pathetic. It's unfortunate that the writers on the show were determined to make him so (e.g. Kurt dwelling in self-pity at Breadstix in Yes/No, Kurt singing 'I Have Nothing' in response to a bf who had publicly shamed him of cheating).

I don't mean to be contrary just for the sake of argument, but this is also the kid who didn't know Julliard didn't have a Dramatic Arts department despite having 'attending Julliard' on his bucket-list and presumably knowing how to work Google, the kid who's plan to place on the top of the list of a 'who's hot (promiscuous) and who's not' by singing Can't Touch This in the library in parachute-pants, the kid who played at being butch to win his father's attention, the kid who set up his father with his crush's mother in a backwards attempt to woe said crush and the kid who from one season to the next gave up a spot at the popular table (i.e; being a Cheerio) for no reason at all. Kurt's always been foolish -- I think in general people seem to forget this? -- just like all the other characters are ridiculously foolish. But I think this is the first time there has been exactly no payback for his foolishness while all the others get rewarded as is Glee's MO.

And that's really the part that bugs me the most, if I think about it. Why, despite all of them having inconsistent and irregular ambition levels -- and no, not even Rachel is as driven as her fans want her to be --, do they get what they want, at least in some capacity, and Kurt just doesn't?

[Delight]

I don't mean to be contrary just for the sake of argument, but this is also the kid who didn't know Julliard didn't have a Dramatic Arts department despite having 'attending Julliard' on his bucket-list and presumably knowing how to work Google,

I find that Kurt (and Rachel) not knowing anything about this is the result of Ryan Murphy trying to cover himself after putting his foot in his mouth. How often had we heard RM talk about Julliard as if it's a training ground for people who wants a career in Broadway? Then when he found out the truth, he tried to inject his misconception into the main characters in his show instead of owning up to his mistake.

The other points you've made are valid though. Kurt schemes a lot more in Season 1, but most of his plans tend to backfire on him. His plans had failed, but not in ways that portrayed him as a failure. His faily-y schemes had been played for laughs, such as the Muppet Babies performance in the library, Butch!Kurt, and his "You both have dead spouses. Maybe you should talk". Heh... Maybe it's the bias talking. After watching Kurt 'fail' in those scenarios, my thoughts were more along the lines of 'Kurt is so adorable!' instead of 'Kurt is so foolish.' In season 3 however, Kurt was portrayed to have failed multiple times, not for humour, but for drama. I guess that's why his failures in season 3 have been more unpalatable.

Kurt giving up his position in the Cheerios was something Glee never bothered to address (they've at least briefly addressed when and how he quit the football team). My theory of the reason behind this 'decision' of Kurt's is that they needed Kurt to be able wear weird and funny clothes once more.

[E-ko]

The other points you've made are valid though. Kurt schemes a lot more in Season 1, but most of his plans tend to backfire on him. His plans had failed, but not in ways that portrayed him as a failure. His faily-y schemes had been played for laughs, such as the Muppet Babies performance in the library, Butch!Kurt, and his "You both have dead spouses. Maybe you should talk". Heh... Maybe it's the bias talking. After watching Kurt 'fail' in those scenarios, my thoughts were more along the lines of 'Kurt is so adorable!' instead of 'Kurt is so foolish.' In season 3 however, Kurt was portrayed to have failed multiple times, not for humour, but for drama. I guess that's why his failures in season 3 have been more unpalatable.

Kurt giving up his position in the Cheerios was something Glee never bothered to address (they've at least briefly addressed when and how he quit the football team). My theory of the reason behind this 'decision' of Kurt's is that they needed Kurt to be able wear weird and funny clothes once more.

I think the decision to have Kurt out of the Cheerios was more along the lines of that they couldn't have Kurt usurping a Cheerio-spot when they had Quinn and Santana having major story-lines with the Cheerios. Also, being in the Cheerios would make Kurt at least half-way popular and would thus weaken the bullying story-line. But it's just so silly to think that either Kurt or Sue would decide for him to quit the Cheerios when he scored them a Nationals win, Kurt enjoys popularity and while vaguely antagonistic towards her doesn't seem to mind Sue's... idiosyncrasies. (Also, Sue and Kurt are just magic together, not even the half-cocked writing of Funeral could suppress Jane and Chris' natural chemistry. <3)

So they just pretended it never happened, lol!

I think the bolded part is absolutely true, too. If they stuck with a healthier balance of humor and drama in Kurt's story-lines -- as they did in S1 -- we probably all wouldn't be absolutely fed up with Glee right now.

As a tangent: the "you both have dead spouses"-scene is gold. Actually, a lot of the scenes you and I mentioned are gold. I miss that Glee terribly. Must resist the urge to pop in my S1 DVDs for the rest of the day now.

[ChrisColferFan1]

Excellent post.

They don't realize how much damage they do to a character and his/her position in the show with these contrived 'problems'. Making Kurt's resume thin had no effect on the outcome in the end: Kurt got his audition letter anyway. But it did influence how people perceive Kurt and judge his ambition and chances.

The same is true for Kurt not getting into NYADA. They may have done that simply for the cliffhanger, and next season Kurt will be in NYADA anyway (as the 1st on the wait list), but it will have damaged his talent level, and he will always be less than Rachel, the girl who choked and got in right away.


I also agree about Kurt never being pathetic. He has taken so many kicks in the nads and he always overcame. He can sulk a bit at times, but he never gives up.

I agree with the above post.

[Delight]

(Also, Sue and Kurt are just magic together, not even the half-cocked writing of Funeral could suppress Jane and Chris' natural chemistry. <3)

So they just pretended it never happened, lol!

I love all the Sue and Kurt interactions we get on the show .

Even when Sue's actively insulting Kurt (e.g. poop rainbow glitter, Porcelina, son of Burt babboon-heart Hummel), it's hard not to detect the underlying affection Sue has for Kurt. I agree that it's probably Jane and Chris's natural on-screen chemistry that made the relationship appear positive, even when it's not really on paper . When you compare Kurt's relationship with Sue to Kurt's relationship with Santana, where Santana kept on making fun of Kurt's effeminacy (e.g. Gay Berry, Lady Hummel), there's a difference. I like Sue's treatment of Kurt. I dislike Santana's.

I still have the inclination to re-watch some of the old S1 episodes. Can't say the same for S3. It's ironic when you think that someone who isn't a 'fan' of Glee would be able to enjoy season 3 Glee a lot better. Our obsession actually makes us hate the show

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