Re: 3x17 "Dance with Somebody" Watch & Discussion thread

[paulopf]

After last weeks episode, I'm not sure if we want to see Kurt playing the field. These sick writers will probably just keep on bring out worse overanimated versions of Chandler to persue Kurt. If Kurt isn't with the perfect alpha gay Blaine, then he's only capable of getting femme gays who are more flamboyant than himself.

I've said this before, but I'll insist. Femme gays, even more flamboyant than Kurt himself are not everyone's cup of tea. Hunk guys aren't either. "Guys-next-door" sort of guys aren't either. Nothing wrong with not finding a guy like Chandler attractive, but him being femme and flamboyant doesn't mean he's a "lesser gay". Unfortunately, I would agree that Glee is reinforcing the idea that femme, flamboyant guys can't be desirable or are only good for making fun of them, so considering that prejudice, then yes, it can be said that it's implied that Kurt can't do "better" than Blaine.

[sahhar]

I actually think Will and Grace wasn't that bad in terms of showing Will with his dating trysts. Glee wouldn't even bother going that far in terms of showing him flirting with guys or going on dates with them.

[Delight]

I know it's already several pages back, but I just want to give a shout-out to Georgette888 and Heyerchick for their interesting posts. I've enjoyed reading them and the discussions they've generated

Chris/Kurt fans come in all shapes and sizes; including those who still support the Klaine ship . It's nice to hear about a different point of view now and then.

I've said this before, but I'll insist. Femme gays, even more flamboyant than Kurt himself are not everyone's cup of tea. Hunk guys aren't either. "Guys-next-door" sort of guys aren't either. Nothing wrong with not finding a guy like Chandler attractive, but him being femme and flamboyant doesn't mean he's a "lesser gay". Unfortunately, I would agree that Glee is reinforcing the idea that femme, flamboyant guys can't be desirable or are only good for making fun of them, so considering that prejudice, then yes, it can be said that it's implied that Kurt can't do "better" than Blaine.

I think all of us here love and appreciate Kurt, and none of us can deny that he is written as a flamboyant, femme gay.

So maybe we shouldn't be too harsh in dismissing Chandler as an unattractive guy who is undeserving of Kurt, whose flirtation with Kurt on the show comes across as insulting to Kurt's character. Chandler is just a different type of gay. I can't speak for anyone else, but my preference for a more masculine gay to pursue Kurt stems from a desire to see someone lust after being physically attracted to Kurt. Not to say that femme gays don't experience physical attraction of course; but Chandler kinda burst onto the scene admiring Kurt's clothing, and hippo broach and appreciation of Whitney songs, and even his attempted courtship of Kurt was kinda all Disney and cute-sy. Whereas with someone like Sebastian, it was all 'I want to get into your pants' kind of attraction to Blaine right from the get go.

I consider Chandler as what 'Kurt Hummel' would've been in the hands of an actor less capable than Chris. It was Chris's determination not to let Kurt become the typical punchline or punching-bag gay on the show that gave rise to our complex, three-dimensional and inspirational gay teen on Glee.

[Jake667]

I strongly disagree with whats being said.
Just because Chandler is not what you want for Kurt does not make Chandler any less anything.
Kurt is a feminine gay that does not mean he cant talk to any others or that some how dating them is a bad thing HE IS ONE.

They are not the same character.. Chandler was written clearly with higher energy and is even more out there, its obviously what they wanted and I loved it.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2583994/
Was the actor

[Delight]

^ Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. I apologize if it came across as feather-ruffling.

Maybe I wasn't too clear. What I meant was that RIB+'s original vision for Kurt Hummel was a much more flamboyant gay, probably very much like Chandler. It was Chris who made a conscious decision to downplay the flamboyant part and make Kurt more 'internal' and subdued.

I'm sure Chandler the character in the DWS episode was played exactly as the writers intended. The actor is good and did a pretty good job at bringing Chandler's character to life in that limited 2 minute screen time. I actually like the bubbly character, and he does display more personality than quite a few of the other characters on the show who have had much more screen time (such as Rory to name just one).

[Jake667]

I am more passionate than I thought on this lol! I totally see your views though!

[red texta]

Yeah, that guy was really good with just a couple of lines to get across Chandler's upbeat personality. I especially liked the last line where he asks for Kurt's number because up until then he'd just been all eager friendly puppy. Just with a slight change of inflection in his voice (and the camera's on Kurt so we don't really know what his expression is like) he suddenly goes from "interesting!!!!" to "interested...."

I actually thought he was more 'nerdy' than fem but that may have been the glasses (which is kinda cinematic shorthand for 'nerd' - there's a reason why Artie doesn't get contacts ).

[Jellyrolls]

There's nothing wrong with femme gays, Jellyrolls, and they're certainly not second best to the so called 'alpha gays', despite what the show tells us, but Chandler himself was certainly not 'hot'. Cute and friendly and even attractive in a non-sexual, non threatening way, but not 'hot'. I think it's partly because they didn't want him to be a credible threat to Klaine but also the usual Glee thing of minimizing gay sexuality. I don't think it's their way of saying Kurt can 'only' get femme gays. but I do think that if Kurt was single and dating hot studs in New York, we'd never see them onscreen. Like in Will and Grace.



This is from tumblr (Gavroche, Kurt and Chandler). Super cute I love it but at the same time, this is kinda how Fox prefer us to see the gay guys rather than the more confronting NSFW version.

Forgot the source: Keep Frozen. There's some other lovely art on that tumblr too, including Kurt and Tina as The Phantom and Christine.

Oh, I have nothing against femme gays (some of my dearest friends are femme gays). I will have a problem if the writers have Kurt pursued by only femme gays. I was half joking in my last comment.

[Glorfindel]

I've said this before, but I'll insist. Femme gays, even more flamboyant than Kurt himself are not everyone's cup of tea. Hunk guys aren't either. "Guys-next-door" sort of guys aren't either. Nothing wrong with not finding a guy like Chandler attractive, but him being femme and flamboyant doesn't mean he's a "lesser gay". Unfortunately, I would agree that Glee is reinforcing the idea that femme, flamboyant guys can't be desirable or are only good for making fun of them, so considering that prejudice, then yes, it can be said that it's implied that Kurt can't do "better" than Blaine.

I think all of us here love and appreciate Kurt, and none of us can deny that he is written as a flamboyant, femme gay.

So maybe we shouldn't be too harsh in dismissing Chandler as an unattractive guy who is undeserving of Kurt, whose flirtation with Kurt on the show comes across as insulting to Kurt's character. Chandler is just a different type of gay. I can't speak for anyone else, but my preference for a more masculine gay to pursue Kurt stems from a desire to see someone lust after being physically attracted to Kurt. Not to say that femme gays don't experience physical attraction of course; but Chandler kinda burst onto the scene admiring Kurt's clothing, and hippo broach and appreciation of Whitney songs, and even his attempted courtship of Kurt was kinda all Disney and cute-sy. Whereas with someone like Sebastian, it was all 'I want to get into your pants' kind of attraction to Blaine right from the get go.

I consider Chandler as what 'Kurt Hummel' would've been in the hands of an actor less capable than Chris. It was Chris's determination not to let Kurt become the typical punchline or punching-bag gay on the show that gave rise to our complex, three-dimensional and inspirational gay teen on Glee.

Basically all of this.

Chandler being what Kurt would be if Chris hadn't changed him is not a diss at Chandler's actor: he did real fine with his role. Chandler was funny, nerdy, loveable (in small doses ), and more fleshed out than several regular characters on Glee. He would be a great friend for Kurt in New York, and even as a lover he'd be interesting, although I don't think he's Kurt type romantically (neither is Gavroche). Kurt would go for the more stubborn but soft inside, not-talking-about-feelings-untill-pushed 'rock' kind of guy: Finn, Sam, Blaine before they retconned him, and yes: Sebastian. You could describe them as 'alpha' male, but as @Paulopf said: there is nothing wrong with different kinds of (gay) males.
Making all other gay characters Kurt interacts with (besides Dave) flamboyant stereotypes (Chandler, Gavroche and the Kurt clones, Wade/Unique) suggests that those gays are the only ones interested in Kurt, because they are so much alike outwardly and they want to fanboy and gossip together. Again: nothing wrong with that, but it sounds more like a potential platonic friendship than pure and raw physical attraction.

Despite his 'asp' comment being pretty direct and physical oriented, Chandler appeared no real 'threat' to Klaine, not because he wasn't sexyually direct and forward (because he actually was pursuing Kurt) but because he was portrayed as 'dorky fem', flamboyant, and Kurt clearly wasn't 'into' Chandler for real. We were supposed to find Chandler no threat for Klaine.
With Blaine and Sebastian there clearly was sexual tension between them: they were both 'hot' and Blaine felt guilty and flustered about the suggestive remarks from Sebastian. Kurt never seriously considered Chandler a sexual option (only taking the texts as flirty funny flattering, but not as real sexual overtures), and that is not so much an 'insult' and jibe to Kurt's physical attractiveness (although the suggestion is certainly there), but mostly to Chandler's, a flamboyant guy like Kurt. And with that notion this 'vision/insult' boomerangs right back to how RIB perceive Kurt, a guy like Chandler.

Oh, I hope I explained this right.

It's the same as giving the 'unattractive' girls in movies glasses, braces and long, strandy hair, before the fabulous make-over of course.
Or why mean girls are either fat or blonde bitches (Lauren and Quinn anyone?). In themselves these physics and physical manners are perfectly fine, but they get stereotyped as being negative or lesser people.
I guess that's what they did with Chandler (and in extension to Kurt), and coming from gay show runners on a show with an iconic gay femme character that partly made this show as succesful as it was in the beginning is.... inconsiderate.

[Jellyrolls]

After last weeks episode, I'm not sure if we want to see Kurt playing the field. These sick writers will probably just keep on bring out worse overanimated versions of Chandler to persue Kurt. If Kurt isn't with the perfect alpha gay Blaine, then he's only capable of getting femme gays who are more flamboyant than himself.

I've said this before, but I'll insist. Femme gays, even more flamboyant than Kurt himself are not everyone's cup of tea. Hunk guys aren't either. "Guys-next-door" sort of guys aren't either. Nothing wrong with not finding a guy like Chandler attractive, but him being femme and flamboyant doesn't mean he's a "lesser gay". Unfortunately, I would agree that Glee is reinforcing the idea that femme, flamboyant guys can't be desirable or are only good for making fun of them, so considering that prejudice, then yes, it can be said that it's implied that Kurt can't do "better" than Blaine.

While I did think that the portrayal of Chandler was over the top (they were going for an over animated version of Kurt), I want to make it clear that I have nothing againt femme gays. I'm all for people being whoever they are (as long as they aren't hurting others in the process).

My issue is entirely around the messages that Glee and the writers send by having a character like Chandler pursuing Kurt, and how they were portraying that to the audience. They were using Chandler as a joke, and they were using Chandler as a way to show that if Kurt didn't have Blaine, he wouldn't find any who was anywhere near as amazing as wonderful as Blaine.

Basically my point is, I don't trust these writers, and I fear that if they have Kurt playing the field, they are just going to have him pursued by a string of overanimated cartoonish versions of himself (which obviously isn't Kurt's type based on his crush on Finn and him ending up with Mr. Perfect Alpha Gay Blaine). If Kurt is going to New York single, I want to see him meeting all kinds of interesting men.

[CloveGlee]

Nooooo.... I think they were just making fun of Tyler Oakley. Which is kind of disturbing, really, but not a slam against Kurt. Remember, the other guy they've had express longing for Kurt was David Karofsky.

[Glorfindel]

^And why were they making fun of Tyler Oakley?
Because he's a nerdy, dorky, fangirling over Darren, flamboyant gay, not because RIB admire his physical appearance or intelligence.
And they had Chandler fall for Kurt, not Blaine, o irony.

They had Dave Karofsky longing for Kurt because it fulfilled the fantasies of many gay guys who like a burly bear cub giving it to the femme gay, not to make Kurt so desirable in the eyes of a hot jock.
People finding Max Adler/Dave hot was the reason for that scenario unfolding, not Kurt, nor Chris.
Why do you think Ryan brought Dave back to Glee? His story was done after TFT, but RM admitted that he got questions and requests from a certain part of the gay community, a part that mainly focus on Dave/Max, not Kurt/Chris.

Maybe I'm coming to this conclusion from a dark place, but that's how I see it.

[Jellyrolls]

Nooooo.... I think they were just making fun of Tyler Oakley. Which is kind of disturbing, really, but not a slam against Kurt. Remember, the other guy they've had express longing for Kurt was David Karofsky.

Whether or not they were making fun of Tyler Oakley, the message that they are sending about the type of guys that are interested in Kurt is very strong. Why was Blaine pursued by someone hot and cool, while Kurt was pursued by someone flamboyant and nerdy?

Remember, most of the people who watch Glee have no idea who Tyler Oakley is--only the people who are active in the Glee fandom online know who he is. So, to most viewers, it comes that if he doesn't have Blaine, Kurt is only appealing to people like himself or someone who is deeply as troubled like Dave. Where as Kurt's perfect alpha gay will be loved, and admired, and desired by everyone he comes in contact with.

[Buenos]

Well whether Chandler was nerdy or hot or whatever, they undermined the drama by making it clear that Kurt wasn't attracted to him in that way, they blinked and didn't want any sexual tension at all between Kurt and Chandler. They played the Kurt/Chandler scene for comedy.

I think it would have been way more interesting if Kurt was actually attracted to Chandler.
The problem is that Chris could easily convey ambiguous feelings (just with his facial expressions alone) and that would created havoc with all the Klaine fans...so they didn't even want to go there.

[CloveGlee]

Well, they also wanted it to be plausible that Kurt did not understand that he was cheating. If he didn't want Chandler, he would not regard this as emotional infidelity. It would have been very much worse for him if he actually wanted to have sex with Chandler, and what he did would have been very, very much worse. There is a reason this paralleled Blaine/Sebastian so closely. The real sexual heat was all one-sided both times.

There's being stunned by real injustices, like Kurt's lack of solos, and then there is fishing for outrage.

[Buenos]

Well, they also wanted it to be plausible that Kurt did not understand that he was cheating. If he didn't want Chandler, he would not regard this as emotional infidelity. It would have been very much worse for him if he actually wanted to have sex with Chandler, and what he did would have been very, very much worse. There is a reason this paralleled Blaine/Sebastian so closely. The real sexual heat was all one-sided both times.

But I think there is a middle ground. Why portray Chandler, quite frankly, as such a *non threat*, he could have been portrayed as an amiable laidback guy, say, a "Sam" type, not a Sebastian predator type of gay. They made it comically over the top to make it obvious that Kurt wasn't attracted in that way, and that was overkill. It's not wrong for Kurt to find other guys attractive aka a Taylor Lautner kind of way without actually cheating on Blaine. The boy has a pulse , after all.

[Jellyrolls]

Well, they also wanted it to be plausible that Kurt did not understand that he was cheating. If he didn't want Chandler, he would not regard this as emotional infidelity. It would have been very much worse for him if he actually wanted to have sex with Chandler, and what he did would have been very, very much worse. There is a reason this paralleled Blaine/Sebastian so closely. The real sexual heat was all one-sided both times.

But I think there is a middle ground. Why portray Chandler, quite frankly, as such a *non threat*, he could have been portrayed as an amiable laidback guy, say, a "Sam" type, not a Sebastian predator type of gay. They made it comically over the top to make it obvious that Kurt wasn't attracted in that way, and that was overkill. It's not wrong for Kurt to find other guys attractive aka a Taylor Lautner kind of way without actually cheating on Blaine. The boy has a pulse , after all.

Exactly, Buenos. I was thinking today that they could have made Chandler more like one of the Warblers or something--just someone lowkey and not an over the top flamboyant gay stereotyped that is used as comedy in Hollywood.

[Buenos]

It occurs to me that Glee doesn't really know how to portray a non stereotypical gay guy, the one guy they sort of had who wasn't had beyond issues with self loathing and denial..aka David Karotsksy...

Sebastian is the promiscuous predator gay guy, while Kurt, Blaine, Chandler and Gavroche of the Doubbetree, as well as the Berry Dads are all musical theater, performance devotees, nothing wrong with that all, but it would be interesting like I said if Glee had a laid back, perhaps hipster gay guy , comfortable in his own skin. Who knows, he might even get interested in a counter tenor...

[ColferGirl]

I've said this before, but I'll insist. Femme gays, even more flamboyant than Kurt himself are not everyone's cup of tea. Hunk guys aren't either. "Guys-next-door" sort of guys aren't either. Nothing wrong with not finding a guy like Chandler attractive, but him being femme and flamboyant doesn't mean he's a "lesser gay". Unfortunately, I would agree that Glee is reinforcing the idea that femme, flamboyant guys can't be desirable or are only good for making fun of them, so considering that prejudice, then yes, it can be said that it's implied that Kurt can't do "better" than Blaine.

I think all of us here love and appreciate Kurt, and none of us can deny that he is written as a flamboyant, femme gay.

So maybe we shouldn't be too harsh in dismissing Chandler as an unattractive guy who is undeserving of Kurt, whose flirtation with Kurt on the show comes across as insulting to Kurt's character. Chandler is just a different type of gay.

I just wanted to chime in on the discussion and say I agree with both Delight and Paulo's points on this - although the bolded, I'll take it a step further and say Kurt isn't just written as flamboyant and feminine, he is flamboyant and feminine, period. What separates Kurt from Chandler is their personalities - Kurt is subdued and internal and reserved, while Chandler is hyper and enthusiastic and chatty. But their "type", feminine and flamboyant, is the same if we're definining them by types (though I guess you could argue one is more of those two traits then the other, and of course their physicalities are different).

Anyway, I'm similar to Delight in that it's not Chandler's "type" that made me wish he wasn't Kurt's pursuer last episode. Paulo hit it on the head that no matter your personal feelings or attractions to a type of person, all of them are of equal worth, there is no "lesser" or "greater" types, no matter what society's messed up prejudices and perceptions are.

I mainly wanted Kurt to be pursued by a more conventionally masculine, taller guy because that's just the type of guy I've always wanted Kurt to be with. And, just before anyone thinks it, not because of subconscious heteronormativity or anything like that. I've just always wanted someone like that for Kurt, probably ever since his crush on Finn, where he seemed romantically attracted to that type to begin with (granted, I think Kurt will end up with someone quite a bit sharper than Finn, though ) Marie also pointed out that Kurt seems to be attracted more to this type too - Finn, Sam, and season2!Blaine all fit into its mold. And yes Blaine is shorter, but in season 2 he was so confident and assured that it gave him a really strong presence and command of a room, I thought, so he still fit into that type, and he seemed even more masculine then too. There's also my shallow reasonings for wanting the masculine tall guy for Kurt, but you don't need to hear those.

It would also have been nice to silence the haters who say he could never attract that type, as well, but honestly it's more because of my personal preferences. I just wanted to clarify that, because I'd hate someone to think I thought of feminine and flamboyant guys as lesser, because they're not. Why would I love and adore Kurt if I felt that way?

Though now that I think about it, since the Chandler plot didn't go anywhere anyway, I'm actually glad it was him. Because this gives me hope that next year, if Kurt and Blaine (hopefully) break up, maybe Kurt can finally be pursued by the kind of guy I wanted. (yes my optimism is blind and unlimited let me dream)

And besides, Chandler really was fun and sweet and bubbly and I liked him. I would have loved for him and Kurt to be friends in New York next season, anyone who makes Kurt feel like this:



anyone who brings out bouncy, happy, smiling Kurt is a keeper in my book. I love it when Kurt is happy.

[Buenos]

'
The irony is that Kurt has now encountered Gavroche, Chandler and the apparently transgendered "Unique" who all make him seem more subdued and restrained in comparison. I agree there is nothing wrong with them as types, but it is interesting , especially how Kurt is portrayed as different from the other guys in New Directions. Blaine fits in with the other guys the way Kurt doesn't (aka the "bro" scenes were Kurt is MIA) so I'm not quite sure what the writers are aiming for here.

[Divalicious]

Buenos, I don't think the writers are aiming at anything. They are throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, or that the actors can have it make sense to the audience. I think the writers do want to make Blaine seem more masculine, because he is basically a short, slender, cute guy. Whose femme boyfriend is taller (and cuter) than him. Everyone knows only tall guys are masculine For a show about abolishing and acceptance of stereotypes, they certainly affirm them a lot.

Perhaps it is simply they see a Chandler type being the kind of guy who goes to music stores and would comment on the very fashionable Kurt. No one really brings up Kurt's comment that he doesn't get many compliments. Considering he is the only one in Glee club who really wears fashion, you think out of kindness there would be a few compliments. Looking back, perhaps my brain isn't firing on all cylinders, but has Kurt ever gotten a compliment on his clothes? Other than Finn saying he rocks in the kilt.

[Buenos]

Buenos, I don't think the writers are aiming at anything. They are throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, or that the actors can have it make sense to the audience. I think the writers do want to make Blaine seem more masculine, because he is basically a short, slender, cute guy. Whose femme boyfriend is taller (and cuter) than him. Everyone knows only tall guys are masculine For a show about abolishing and acceptance of stereotypes, they certainly affirm them a lot.

Perhaps it is simply they see a Chandler type being the kind of guy who goes to music stores and would comment on the very fashionable Kurt. No one really brings up Kurt's comment that he doesn't get many compliments. Considering he is the only one in Glee club who really wears fashion, you think out of kindness there would be a few compliments. Looking back, perhaps my brain isn't firing on all cylinders, but has Kurt ever gotten a compliment on his clothes? Other than Finn saying he rocks in the kilt.

You're probably right, the writers are all over the place. I guess it's just annoying how they stack the deck against Kurt to make the narrative make *sense* when there's cognitive dissonance to what is seen on screen. Kurt is just seen in the show as having negative consequences for being himself. To this day, I still don't get what elicited laughs so badly (I am Unicorn) from the Romeo and Juliet scene that Kurt and Rachel did, it wasn't fantastic but it wasn't some unbelievably bad over the top implausible acting.. Heck it was better then most of the acting the other performers do on the show..

[brisallie]

Can I be honest? Personally I don't like very much flamboyant and femme gays because I'm sorry if I'm saying an stereotype but they tend to be too hyper for me and usually Is not easier for me to bear that kind of personalities.However I don't see Kurt all that flamboyant the people say is he, but I can't deny he has some female gestures and he himself has called him "honorary girl" but because he feel more connected with that side, so that why I dislike the fact the writers are portraying him a he was the "female" in the Klaine's relationship and Blaine the "alpha and male gay" For me is like they're following what society states how have to be the roles in a relationship? But why is has to be like that? Why Kurt can't be the dominant some days and Blaine others and viceversa?

Also Blaine being the kind of gay who also attract girl and get on well with his bros? Why're they making that difference between both of them?

To this day, I still don't get what elicited laughs so badly (I am Unicorn) from the Romeo and Juliet scene that Kurt and Rachel did, it wasn't fantastic but it wasn't some unbelievably bad over the top implausible acting.. Heck it was better then most of the acting the other performers do on the show..

Because it was Kurt. If BEA should had kept away from their mind how Kurt is, they should had recognized he did a good performance after all , personally I believed him his acting, the problem was he was too anxious to demostrate how male he could be.

[Shinra17]

This is from tumblr (Gavroche, Kurt and Chandler). Super cute

Thx, I've seen it elsewhere and I couldn't figure out who was the third guy. Well, I would have like it better without Gavroche... anyway

[fantastica]

When the spoiler of chandler first came out (spoiled by one of these "official" glee spoilers so you know they tend to be accurate) it was described as a "masculine hottie". that's why I was kind of taken aback when I actually saw him on my screen. He's niether masculine nor a hottie (but definitely a cutie) in a traditional sense. I think it played in my expectation of this charater somewhat.

and "alpha" person has nothing to do w/ his inner strength. It's all about how a group perceive him to be. In a wolf pack an alpha male dominates and leads. In a human group an alpha is whom everybody follows and kisses ass to. Kurt is no where near an alpha guy because he is an oddball. Finn is definitely the alpha straight but blaine is the alpha gay as all the gay guys (as well as the girls) suround him.

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