Re: General Glee Discussion Thread-Part 2

[AnneNeville]

^You do look a lot like Anne!

I'm thinking that Fox gave Glee two years because RIB caved on the newbies and keeping McKinley High School.

Why do you think that? Honest question. FOX made it very clear they wanted NYC focus, use those stars for all marketing purposes and the Newbies still have a very bad reception by the audience. RIB has no power whatsoever to push for more Newbies. I can just hope and predict that the show will slowly move out of HS and likely start focusing more on NYC (probably by coincident when Blaine gets there, because all SL before him are not worth showing...) and maybe Lima University.

Right, that's what I'm saying. I think that Ryan wanted to keep McKinley/a split narrative and Fox sees the ship sinking and wants NYC and the fan favorite characters. So they've been duking it out.

There were rumors floated a few weeks ago that some of the big producers/writers would NOT be returning next year. That might have been a pressure tactic to get RIB to capitulate. I'm going to wait to see whether some of the showrunners are getting the boot at the same time as Glee has gotten a renewal.

I think that Fox won and Ryan lost. There have been some serious "negotiations" going on here. It might have been "we're going to take your show from you, Ryan" or "unless you agree to NYC/fan favorites, we're canceling Glee altogether" as the stick, and "but . . . if you do what we want and move to NYC, we'll renew for TWO years!" as the carrot.

***This is all speculation***

This is what I think too. Not only is the 2 years of renewal the carrot, but it is also Ryan saving face. If he has to leave his beloved McKinley behind or reduce its screentime, he can at least say that Glee will be on 2 more seasons.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe we will see more focus on New York next seasons. I don't think Lima will disappear, as I think that they will stick with the noobs untill they graduate, but they will be more the jukebox side of the show, like they were in some early episodes of season 4 (when there was still a reasonable focus on New York). Here's hoping!

As for Klaine. This could mean that Blaine moves to New York, and we'll probably get that Klaine wedding in season 6 (although a lot can happen till then).
But I think that Blaine will stay in Lima for now, to keep anchoring that part of the show, whether they extend the current school year or not in season 5. They planned for Finn to be the anchor of Lima (replacing Will?), but with Cory in rehab they cannot take any risks. So it might be that Kurt is Blaine free for a while still.

But think how much money they will save if they get rid of the New Directions/Will/Emma/Sue. Obviously the show is not focused on Glee competitions anymore. What do the newbies contribute? Any money that is saved from cutting McKinley would be available to go to New York.

If McKinley is cut, and the production moves to NYC (Bloomberg film incentives), they don't have to move those people or those sets. Finn can stay at University of Lima until Cory is better, then transfer to Hunter College's School of Education. Or something (but please, not Columbia).

*If* they do a move, they'll have to do it during the summer hiatus. So I guess we will find out more soon.

[arina]

I didn't know Smash was cancelled, kinda sad to hear, it definitely wasn't the best tv show ever but I have been enjoying it more than Glee (not that is hard) lately. My favorites have been Ivy and Tom since the start and I will miss them and Bombshell.

[coxfire]

I probably won't watch the next seasons. The aventures of Blachel and their sidekicks don't appeal to me. Ryan's boner for Blaine won't go away and the impeding assassination of both Burt and probably Kurt to prop this stupid mariage storyline will manage to turn me definitively down. I might come here once in a while to Check if an ep is worth watching.

[tanita_mors]

another big smash fan here !!!!!!!!! i'm team ivy all the way, hope her storyline ends with all the awards she deserves because i can't stand miss "awesome karen". also i really digg megan hilty, but given the the girl was glinda in my all time second favorite musical, it's no wonder.

did you by any chance met her and if so, what is she like ?

[arina]

another big smash fan here !!!!!!!!! i'm team ivy all the way, hope her storyline ends with all the awards she deserves because i can't stand miss "awesome karen". also i really digg megan hilty, but given the the girl was glinda in my all time second favorite musical, it's no wonder.

did you by any chance met her and if so, what is she like ?

What is the first? Phantom? :-) And Megan is truly awesome, I personally didn't know her before Smash and since the beginning of the show I fell love with her talent.

[ColferGirl]

Add me to the list of Smash fans! I didn't even realize it was cancelled until I saw it posted here. I'm so sad now. I've loved season 2....

I'd also like to know what Megan Hilty is like if you can share. I love her on the show, I'm an Ivy (and Tom!) fan as well.

[AnneNeville]

I didn't know Smash was cancelled, kinda sad to hear, it definitely wasn't the best tv show ever but I have been enjoying it more than Glee (not that is hard) lately. My favorites have been Ivy and Tom since the start and I will miss them and Bombshell.

Ah, but now Ivy (Megan Hilty), Tom (Christian Borle), and Jimmy (Jeremy Jordan) are all available to sing and dance in another show . . .

I didn't watch the first season, only the first two episodes, and I've only started watching the second season spottily since I worked on the show. I find that--at least this year--the show has assassinated the female characters. Only Ivy and Ana have guts. Karen is . . . ugh. Jimmy is . . . double ugh (poor Jeremy Jordan--he was AWESOME in Bway's Bonnie & Clyde--listen to it!).

Basically, since they fired Theresa Rebeck (season one) and brought in the showrunner from Gossip Girl, I think the women have fared badly. Not quite as badly as the women on Glee . . .

Megan Hilty is amaaaaaaaazing. And watching Krystina Rodriguez (??) do that cirque du soleil style aerial stuff was fantastic. You can't see it in the finished product, but the "sidekick" dancers were leaping from table to table and swinging back and forth. They'd only put extras with REALLY GOOD REFLEXES at those tables. Braid-girl was leaping all around me.

[AnneNeville]

They still dance on Smash.

[arina]

I don't remember last season of Smash that much but I actualy think Karen is basically the same. Ivy was kinda bitch last year (I loved her nonetheless :-) and sometimes I wondered if they were portraying her sometimes that unlikeable because they desperately wanted people to root for Karen.

I actually don't hate Karen that much as most of the Smash fandom seem to but for Broadway show it's kinda obvious who is much more suitable.


Who I absoluely hated and found reduntand last year was Ellis or what was his name, so I am definitely glad he is not there anymore. This year I am kinda irritated by Jimmy. I normaly enjoy edgier not that nice characters (I loved Gregory House or my favorite character in Harry was Snape or my favorite in Once Upon a Time is Evil Queen) and I tried to give him a chance but he really has only irritated me so far.

These two are really the best

[tanita_mors]

my favorite character in Harry was Snape or my favorite in Once Upon a Time is Evil Queen

Gurlllllllll, you and I are taste soulmates.

Ivy has been declawed this season and I particularly cringed in episode 2 or 3 when she did her solo and it was all about derek and how he doesn't see her and shit. but the characters has fared a bit batter since then and i love how she is the one to decide what she and derek are, how exclusive. she never struck me as someone who let a man decide anything in her life or walk all over her. but i did enjoy her cattiness last season. besides derek, this season there is the great dynamic she and tom have and the relationship with her self-obsessed mother. juts keep her as far away from karen as possible.

if you look at this season of smash a lot of the plotlines seam so very meta. a writer who botched up her creation - Theresa Rebeck and Julia, a glorified extra takes the audience by storm and becomes the shows villain - Diva for Hit List, Anna to Karen = to some extent what happened with the character of Ivy, the only bright light in an otherwise crappy show - ivy in liaisons = megan in smash, ...

also, while i'm sure jeremy jordan is a great guy and he is a hell of a singer, i can't stand jimmy. he is such an entitled little junky shit. and not the magnificent bastard kind, like ivy was in season 1 or derek has always been. the character is just soooo unlikable. almost ellis levels to me.

[Ranwing]

Well, you guys convinced me and I watched my first episode of Smash last night. I held off because I really hate Kate McPhee since American Idol (thought that she was vastly overrated and just didn't like her personality on the show). But Megan Hilty was absolutely stunning and the whole time I was thinking that there was absolutely no way that her character wouldn't have been selected for the lead. Sure, McPhee's character had a good voice, but Ivy was the total package, with the experience that if I was a director would be the final deciding factor. Not sure if I'll keep watching, but at least now I know what everyone is talking about.

[Glorfindel]

I saw the first episode of Smash when it first aired, and didn't really like it. The singing was alright, but it just couldn't hold my interest, as I saw nothing 'new'.
But I've downloaded all episodes, so I might watch a marathon of Smash at some time, maybe when I'm sick or on holiday and having a lazy day.

[AnneNeville]

my favorite character in Harry was Snape or my favorite in Once Upon a Time is Evil Queen

Gurlllllllll, you and I are taste soulmates.

Ivy has been declawed this season and I particularly cringed in episode 2 or 3 when she did her solo and it was all about derek and how he doesn't see her and shit. but the characters has fared a bit batter since then and i love how she is the one to decide what she and derek are, how exclusive. she never struck me as someone who let a man decide anything in her life or walk all over her. but i did enjoy her cattiness last season. besides derek, this season there is the great dynamic she and tom have and the relationship with her self-obsessed mother. juts keep her as far away from karen as possible.

if you look at this season of smash a lot of the plotlines seam so very meta. a writer who botched up her creation - Theresa Rebeck and Julia, a glorified extra takes the audience by storm and becomes the shows villain - Diva for Hit List, Anna to Karen = to some extent what happened with the character of Ivy, the only bright light in an otherwise crappy show - ivy in liaisons = megan in smash, ...

also, while i'm sure jeremy jordan is a great guy and he is a hell of a singer, i can't stand jimmy. he is such an entitled little junky shit. and not the magnificent bastard kind, like ivy was in season 1 or derek has always been. the character is just soooo unlikable. almost ellis levels to me.

It is pretty meta. It was also sad when it seemed like they were going to totally assassinate the profession of dramaturgs (which I think they didn't, in the end, though they went with the more commercial, undramaturged script). That . . . put me off.

Jimmy is a blaine-worthy character. Except I like Jeremy Jordan's voice--he's amazing even live. If you get a chance, listen to Bonnie & Clyde, which should not have closed so fast. He was exceptional. His turn in Newsies, and even in Smash, are pale imitations of the "bad guy you identify with" and "bad guy with a heart of gold." Having seen him in B&C, I would have said he was a solid actor. But Newsies and Jimmy just have him doing duller and less likable versions of the same character.



I don't know why Glee has never done a Frank Wildhorn song--they cross the line into pop AND are Broadway. Maybe Frank says "no." B&C was amazing, though. Some of those songs would probably suit Lea well.

[AnneNeville]

I saw the first episode of Smash when it first aired, and didn't really like it. The singing was alright, but it just couldn't hold my interest, as I saw nothing 'new'.
But I've downloaded all episodes, so I might watch a marathon of Smash at some time, maybe when I'm sick or on holiday and having a lazy day.

It will be funny if I convinced you all to watch Smash. I don't even have cable--and fast forward through most of the episodes to find out if I'm visible.

The pilot had me rotflmao though, because a lot of what Tom said about the business had me and my hubby cheering! And Christian Borle (!!!). I love him in everything. Especially Legally Blonde:



Glee hasn't done any of the music by the composer of Legally Blonde/Batboy, either, have they?

[brisallie]

It seems I've to download Smash to stay in tune with you guys

[AnneNeville]

It seems I've to download Smash to stay in tune with you guys

I won't make you download Smash. Or watch those clips of Legally Blonde. But I will posit that Christian Borle would have been awesome as Mr. Schue. And that I might still like ChristianBorle!Schue.

But . . . maybe they can hire him to be on Glee now? At NYADA? Or working on Funny Girl.

ETA: Of course, it isn't Matt M's fault that they've written Will the way they have. ::sigh::

ETA: Thing about Smash is that the musical numbers/voices show what Glee *ought* to have going for it now. It was always musically "tight."

[brisallie]

I won't download it, but I could give it a try watching it online.

And I've seen pictures of Christian Borle, and he looks like someone who could be a teacher at Nyada. Sadly for you he can't be Mr.Schue, he must have auditioned five years ago.

And you know what's a problem I have with Matt at this moment, but isn't his fault, is he doesn't look like a teacher next to Finn and Puck. Because they have aged so quickly, so they look more like friends now

[arina]

Christian Borle is very talented guy but as you said it's not Morrison's fault Schuester is written the way he is. I think he is one of the most talented people on the show and Schue was awesome character in season 1, no one who would play him now with his script could make him great no matter how talented he would be.
But I would definitely love to see Chris and Christian share the scene :-) but at this point I don't know if I should wish to the people I like to be on Glee...

Personally I have to admit I had rather negative attitude to Smash in the beginning because there were alot of comparing to Glee (and Smash was mostly made the winner) and I even think I heard some people from Smash talked how much more talented people they have on the show etc and I did not like it... both shows have talented cast.

I still think that first season of Glee is much more unique and original show than Smash although the shows are totally different and basicaly uncomparable. But Glee unfortunately has been rather shit at least for two years now while Smash more or less keeps its quality or at least hasn't declined that much (it had problems in first season as well imo). So nowadays I enjoy watching Smash more even though the fact I am not that emotionally invested in the show also helps.

[AnneNeville]

I won't download it, but I could give it a try watching it online.

And I've seen pictures of Christian Borle, and he looks like someone who could be a teacher at Nyada. Sadly for you he can't be Mr.Schue, he must have auditioned five years ago.

And you know what's a problem I have with Matt at this moment, but isn't his fault, is he doesn't look like a teacher next to Finn and Puck. Because they have aged so quickly, so they look more like friends now

That's true . . .

MM is really talented, and Christian Borle would be better used at NYADA. I guess the little part of me that wishes Christian Borle had been Schue in the beginning is because of one thing that bugs me (just a little, but increasingly so). It didn't matter when Schue was still well-written, and no actor could save the part now, but so much about Schue depends on him being a kind of Lima Loser himself (Terri plot, etc).

And Matt is such a leading man. I can't see him being runner-up to Bryan Ryan--much less still bitter all these years later.

The weaker the writing for Schue gets, the more irritated I am with the character--and the less I sympathize with him. Because once he escaped from Terri, there was nothing to make him a "loser" anymore, except the writers making him a terrible teacher, insisting his best friend is a teenager who taught him how to be a man, etc.

There is no point in ret-conning, anyway. In fact, it was silly of me even to suggest a ChristianBorle!Schue.

[Lottie2303]

I liked Mr Schue at the beginning, but I firmly believe even Chris couldn’t have saved the character. The character truly suffered from the writing. However, I must confess I really dislike MM in general, so that also paints the character in a negative light anyway.

I really want to see some established Broadway talents teaching at NYADA or used in some other capacity. That entire NYC arc basically begs to cast some amazing talents who can teach Kurt and Rachel. There is so much potential in the entire arc – I really will never, ever understand why Rib feels the need to undermine it entirely (I am repeating myself today… I should stop now).

[AnneNeville]

Personally I have to admit I had rather negative attitude to Smash in the beginning because there were alot of comparing to Glee (and Smash was mostly made the winner) and I even think I heard some people from Smash talked how much more talented people they have on the show etc and I did not like it... both shows have talented cast.

I still think that first season of Glee is much more unique and original show than Smash although the shows are totally different and basicaly uncomparable. But Glee unfortunately has been rather shit at least for two years now while Smash more or less keeps its quality or at least hasn't declined that much (it had problems in first season as well imo). So nowadays I enjoy watching Smash more even though the fact I am not that emotionally invested in the show also helps.

You're absolutely right about Glee being totally different than Smash, at least at the beginning. I don't know if you can say that Glee is more *unique* than Smash--I've never seen a show built around the writing and staging of a Broadway musical before--but they are not comparable. They were, in conception, very different. Now, they are both becoming more and more soap-opera like, just aimed at different demographics.

I am afraid that Smash did do better with some of its casting--probably because they had to cast *fewer* dancer/singer/actors and because it's based out of NYC, where the triple threats live. They can easily get someone like Bernadette Peters to drop in for a few episodes. However, they also didn't write themselves into having a 12 member chorus of singer/dancer regulars.

Also, from skimming, it seems to me that Smash has fewer musical numbers per episode--and that much more of the time is dedicated to plot development. That means more resources and time can go to each song. They probably shoot for the same number of days per episode, so that would make quite a difference in how much time and energy can be allotted to each musical "bit." (The Diva's aerial number was shot in one 11 hour day, and the scenes that took place at that benefit took at least two full days of shooting to accomplish--that I know about).


= 11 hour day for this extra. Just for the shots of the number/at the tables (who knows when the shots in the coat room were done).

If Smash had lasted beyond two seasons, perhaps its production numbers would have started going downhill. As it is, they remain really polished. It makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes with Glee. Where is the choreography?

I also wonder how the budget of Smash compares with the budget of Glee. Was Smash significantly more expensive than Glee?

[AnneNeville]

I liked Mr Schue at the beginning, but I firmly believe even Chris couldn’t have saved the character. The character truly suffered from the writing. However, I must confess I really dislike MM in general, so that also paints the character in a negative light anyway.

I really want to see some established Broadway talents teaching at NYADA or used in some other capacity. That entire NYC arc basically begs to cast some amazing talents who can teach Kurt and Rachel. There is so much potential in the entire arc – I really will never, ever understand why Rib feels the need to undermine it entirely (I am repeating myself today… I should stop now).

Established Broadway talents would be nice. Why can't Uma Thurman teach dance?

[arina]

I am afraid that Smash did do better with some of its casting--probably because they had to cast *fewer* dancer/singer/actors and because it's based out of NYC, where the triple threats live. They can easily get someone like Bernadette Peters to drop in for a few episodes. However, they also didn't write themselves into having a 12 member chorus of singer/dancer regulars.

I think Smash has more triple threats but both shows have talented people for what they needed to. Smash is about professionals and Glee about high school kids so it would be weird if all the kids in McKinley danced like pros for example. They seemed more real like this (Finn withouth his clumsy dancing wouldn’t be Finn :-D) although Kurt and Rachel should probably dance better considering they were practising since they were little and were accepted into very prestigious school.

Overall both shows had great cast (had because nowadays Glee's casting is mostly about abs and model looks )
.
But I was probably the most annoyed that I heard some people from Smash team were comparing their cast and I don’t think that is professional.

[Glorfindel]

I think Smash has more triple threats but both shows have talented people for what they needed to. Smash is about professionals and Glee about high school kids so it would be weird if all the kids in McKinley danced like pros for example. They seemed more real like this (Finn withouth his clumsy dancing wouldn’t be Finn :-D) although Kurt and Rachel should probably dance better considering they were practising since they were little and were accepted into very prestigious school.

I agree with this. I like that the ND members are not all well-rounded triple threats. They are in a normal highschool after all, and kids with that level of talent are realistic.
TBH: the level of singing talent should also have been lower in ND to make it more realistic. To have Rachel, Kurt, Mercedes and Artie together in 1 year would be a Godsend in any choir.
I like the stumbling and fumbling when they danced (talking about the 3 first seasons now. Nowadays I hate the lack of choreography).
And I liked seeing the kids improving their skills over the years (dancing and singing). The rawness of e.g. Chris' and Cory's skills was endearing, and I loved seeing them get better over time.

Kurt and Rachel in canon can dance, if only Ohio amateur good. And Glee could have gotten away with that illusion if they hadn't inserted Kate Hudson as a dance teacher, created multiple dance scenes for Rachel (in which Lea fell short) and had given Rachel that plot with her coming out of it smelling like roses. Rachel should have really struggled in dance class, and not have them pretend she was a match to her dance teacher there in several dance diva-offs.
Kurt's level of dancing would be enough at NYADA if he was admitted for primarily singing (dance light roles) and perhaps acting. Cassandra's class was called "Dance 101" after all. Not everyone who enrolls in a musical theatre school has to be a genuine triple threat: being excellent at 2 skills and tolerable at 1 would be enough.

Overall both shows had great cast (had because nowadays Glee's casting is mostly about abs and model looks )

Ugh, agreed as well. The casting for the Pilot was so good: they struck gold there. Those were real outcasts, not this recent bland troupe of Kens and Barbies.

But I was probably the most annoyed that I heard some people from Smash team were comparing their cast and I don’t think that is professional.

Agreed on this too. Smash may have had more seasoned triple threats in their cast, but they didn't put the emphasis on charisma and originality when they casted, and that is what the original Glee cast has. Plus Smash had a totally different need for performing skills than Glee (professional Broadway performers vs. high school kids).
But regardless: you don't diss the actors(!) of another show, especially not when your own show was solely engineered to ride on the coattails of popularity of the show you're dissing (and you then get cancelled after 2 seasons).

[Glorfindel]

Since we discussed the iTunes sales in another thread, I think this is interesting:

So here are the top 10 opening week sales for each season. This doesn't account for longevity or total sales (for example, the original Don't Stop Believing is at around 1.4 million total sales, Teenage Dream and Forget You are around 600k), but it's still interesting.

Season One:
1. Don’t Stop Believing - 177,391
2. Total Eclipse Of The Heart - 134,000
3. Poker Face – 108,770
4. Jesse’s Girl – 105,000
5. Like a Prayer - 87,000
6. Dream On – 83,869
7. Somebody To Love – 77,799
8. I Dreamed a Dream – 77,556
9. It’s My Life/Confessions – 74,400
10. Defying Gravity – 69,979

Season Two:
1. Loser Like Me – 226,781
2. Teenage Dream – 213,773
3. Forget You – 192,458
4. Get It Right – 162,638
5. Singin In The Rain/Umbrella – 140,147
6. I Feel Pretty/Unpretty – 112,000
7. Toxic – 109,000
8. Empire State of Mind – 106,000
9. Dog Days Are Over – 98,000
10. Rolling In The Deep – 93,000

Season Three:
1. Rumour Has It/Someone Like You – 160,048
2. Somebody That I Used To Know – 152,000
3. We Are Young – 137,065
4. Smooth Criminal – 108,078
5. Without You – 97,258
6. How Will I Know – 73,000
7. Shake It Out - 65,000
8. Fly/I Believe I Can Fly – 59,792
9. We Found Love - 56,984
10. Human Nature - 55,708

Season Four:
1. Let Me Love You – 48,495
2. The Scientist – 46,463
3. Give Your Heart a Break – 40,102
4. It’s Time – 40,000
5. Mine – 31,248
6. A Thousand Years – 30,819
7. Americano/Dance Again – 30,294
8. Teenage Dream Acoustic – 30,000
9. This Is the New Year – 27,818
10. Don’t Speak – 27,256

IMDb-thread
Look at the difference between the first seasons in comparison to season 4.

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