Re: General Glee Discussion Thread--Part 4

[coxfire]

i honestly don't think Lea was so traumatized by cory's death. it's not like they have been married for ages.

I find it very hard to prejuge the amount of trauma someone goes through, particularly since we do not know these people. Whatever we know of them is some kind of exterior view twisted one way or another by the media and our own personnal view of them, but none of us know who they are, because we don't share their everyday life.

We, on this forum, were pretty pissed at some people for telling chris how he should mourn Cory, and I think we should also give Lea the same freedom. Maybe coping was for her to soldier on and try to keep a strong face, and keep working, I don't know, but grieving is such a personnal process that I always feel uncomfortable when people assume what X or Y feels.

And yes, maybe Lea and Cory weren't married for ages, but losing you're significant other is traumatic whatever the timeline is. One of my friend lost his GF in a car accident, they weren't married, and were dating for 1 year only, but that was 10 years ago and the ghost of this relationships still is with him. No matter how you move on, the "what if..." factor still lingers and affects you.

Now, were Lea and Cory an actual item, or just a PR stunt? I don't know, don't care, but they certainly were friends and co-workers for 5 years now. They blossomed through Glee together, experienced lots of life changing events at the same time, and I really do think that losing someone like that is traumatic.

[Glorfindel]

^Although I agree 100% with you on not judging how other people grieve, and that losing someone close can have a very longterm effect, no matter if they were together for a long time or not, I'm starting to find this whole media spiel (and Ryan's spiel, lbr) singling out Lea a bit tacky. 

Cory was loved by other people too, and although I'm sure his death has a big impact on Lea's life and she's mourning him in all honesty (whether their relationship was real or PR, I'm sure Lea loved Cory very much) I also feel that the overdramatic black robe of the grieving widow is being put upon her by the media and her own PR team, and she seems quite comfortable wearing it, not wanting to take it off any time soon as long as it helps her career, imo.

But what do we really know. We are getting force fed a facade of a public image, and we don't really know these people.
I really want to give Lea the benefit of the doubt, but tbh it's her own and Glee's PR teams that is making that difficult for me, not the unconfirmed rumors going around in the fandom and evil gossip made up by shady media sites.

[arina]

i honestly don't think Lea was so traumatized by cory's death. it's not like they have been married for ages.

I find it very hard to prejuge the amount of trauma someone goes through, particularly since we do not know these people. Whatever we know of them is some kind of exterior view twisted one way or another by the media and our own personnal view of them, but none of us know who they are, because we don't share their everyday life.

We, on this forum, were pretty pissed at some people for telling chris how he should mourn Cory, and I think we should also give Lea the same freedom. Maybe coping was for her to soldier on and try to keep a strong face, and keep working, I don't know, but grieving is such a personnal process that I always feel uncomfortable when people assume what X or Y feels.

And yes, maybe Lea and Cory weren't married for ages, but losing you're significant other is traumatic whatever the timeline is. One of my friend lost his GF in a car accident, they weren't married, and were dating for 1 year only, but that was 10 years ago and the ghost of this relationships still is with him. No matter how you move on, the "what if..." factor still lingers and affects you.

Now, were Lea and Cory an actual item, or just a PR stunt? I don't know, don't care, but they certainly were friends and co-workers for 5 years now. They blossomed through Glee together, experienced lots of life changing events at the same time, and I really do think that losing someone like that is traumatic.

I totally agree with that.

[coxfire]

^Although I agree 100% with you on not judging how other people grieve, and that losing someone close can have a very longterm effect, no matter if they were together for a long time or not, I'm starting to find this whole media spiel (and Ryan's spiel, lbr) singling out Lea a bit tacky. 

I agree that Ryan and the media spiel are indeed overdoing it by hammering us with how difficult it was for her, but I don't think Lea's grief or amount of sorrow should be disminished either. I guess we can say that the handling of Cory's death on a media level is tacky, but the personnal feelings of Lea regarding it are a different thing for me.

[Glorfindel]

^If I didn't make that clear in my previous post, I agree.
I think Lea's feelings regarding Cory's death, especially  outside of the public eye, are very real, and she deserves compassion for her personal loss, and also respect for e.g. singing her song for the tribute.

As also said: noone can put judgement on how someone else grieves, that goes for Lea as it goes for Chris. But the deliberate media image of her (and Lea must be in on most of this) can be judged, especially when it comes straight from her own and Glee's team.
Same goes for the image of Darren as a straight man (if one is to believe the rumors about his sexuality). Of course his PR team must advice him in this, but when push comes to shove it's Darren's call: noone's forcing him to live the (presumed) lie of his public image. The actors pay their PR teams after all, not the other way around.

I'm very glad that Chris does not seem to want to play those image games.

[coxfire]

If I didn't make that clear in my previous post, I agree.

No, no, it was clear, but my initial post wasn't about the media handling of it all, but rather fantastica's comment that Lea's experience wasn't "that traumatic". that's the distinction I was talking about. Your post was very clear.

I'm very glad that Chris does not seem to want to play those image games.

Oh yes, that's something I like about Chris. He is cautious about what he says, but also has that kind of "Fuck the PR" attitude I really like.

I like that he calls out fans on how crazy they are, that he teases them when it comes to fanfiction, that he didn't mind coming out when people told him not to, and that he clearly stated "I'm mourning my friend the way I want and if someon on the Internet has a problem with that he can go eff' himself".

I don't feel him being a people pleaser, on the contrary, he refuses to take pictures when he is not in the mood, for instance, and my god I APPROVE!!! I'm sure Chris also has negative sides that we don't see (everyone is flawed, after all), but he doesn't look fake

[arina]

Yeah of course I don't know Chris personally so he might be in reality very different than I think but at least from what he let us know he really seems honest and mostly says what he really thinks rather than what he knows people want to hear and it is very refreshing especially in hollywood.

[AnneNeville]

But what do we really know. We are getting force fed a facade of a public image, and we don't really know these people.
I really want to give Lea the benefit of the doubt, but tbh it's her own and Glee's PR teams that is making that difficult for me, not the unconfirmed rumors going around in the fandom and evil gossip made up by shady media sites.

^ Yes, the PR machine has been really objectionable this time around.

[brisallie]

I might be wrong, but it gives the impression that Lea is being judged because she's being seen in public a lot lately, and in addition, she's the who is promoting the tribute episode along with Ryan. So this can be taken as a marketing move, and some people could not understand the way she's "using" Cory's image.

To be honest, and I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but Lea is someone who promotes herself a lot and it seems this won't be the exception. She's not like Chris who prefers to mourn in private, I mean she did it for several weeks, but then she has returned to the public eye. Promise I'm trying not to be harsh, because we have no idea how each of them are still dealing with the loss of their friend/boyfriend, but sadly is the impression I've.

[Ranwing]

Lea is more than entitled to mourn Cory however she sees fit and return to work and the public eye whenever she is ready. I have no issue with that at all and if she still felt unable to return to work, or unable to appear in this particular episode, I would be more than understanding and sympathetic. What I don't like, however, is this appearance that she is using Cory's death to promote herself. I'm not saying that she's doing it delibertly and I think that most of it is coming from RM and the show's PR team, but holding up Lea as some kind of icon because she suffered a terrible loss and is moving on with life after a respectful period of mourning. That's what I would expect of any professional. There's only so long you can sit around and grieve before you have to restart life. Maybe it's my Jewish upbringing where we have a set mourning period (the week of sitting shiva) and then we start moving on with the business of life. Spending months openly grieving and not attending to life is considered self-indulgent to say the least.

I was willing to give RM the opportunity to show that this tribute episode can be done and done in a way that is respectful and tasteful, but it is now very apparent that the show is going to capitalize on Cory's death and by appearing alongside RM and going along with the party line, Lea is now an active part of that effort to use Cory for their own ends. And because RM is holding up Lea as the figure that the whole cast has rallied around (and belittled those who may have been uncomfortable with how the tribute was done), it's pretty clear to me that he (and to a degree she) is using Cory's unfortunate passing. This I fine pretty hard to swallow. As others have said, Lea comes second only to Darren for self-promotion and I find it rather sad that even Cory's death appears to be in some small way part of that. Does she deserve consideration over the loss that she suffered and for these first steps in moving on with her life? Certainly. I just don't think she needs to be congratulated over and over again for doing what pretty much everyone has to do at some point.

[ColferInspired]

^If I didn't make that clear in my previous post, I agree.
I think Lea's feelings regarding Cory's death, especially  outside of the public eye, are very real, and she deserves compassion for her personal loss, and also respect for e.g. singing her song for the tribute.

As also said: noone can put judgement on how someone else grieves, that goes for Lea as it goes for Chris. But the deliberate media image of her (and Lea must be in on most of this) can be judged, especially when it comes straight from her own and Glee's team.
Same goes for the image of Darren as a straight man (if one is to believe the rumors about his sexuality). Of course his PR team must advice him in this, but when push comes to shove it's Darren's call: noone's forcing him to live the (presumed) lie of his public image. The actors pay their PR teams after all, not the other way around.

I'm very glad that Chris does not seem to want to play those image games.

The thing is Lea is Ryan's mouthpiece, this is what it is. So, is Matt, so is Jane and others of the cast that did interviews for the Tribute.

Fox would have encouraged Lea's PR team to get as many interviews out there, probably promising Lea would get more screentime, which is they would want for their client.

Like others, I see Lea as Ryan's puppet.

I don't know Chris but I very much doubt he would be friends with someone exploiting a friends death, if Lea was doing that.

This is my assumption that Chris was encouraged to do the same as the others, but he probably politely declined.

[Buenos]

I really really get tired of the Lea hate.

She's the fucking star of the show, I know other resent that ,but it is what it is.

[ColferInspired]

I really really get tired of the Lea hate.

She's the fucking star of the show, I know other resent that ,but it is what it is.

Blame Ryan and Fox. I do.  

I don't blame Lea as I don't know her.

This is their show, Lea and the others are just the players to promoting this tribute.

I like Lea.

[brisallie]

I really really get tired of the Lea hate.

She's the fucking star of the show, I know other resent that ,but it is what it is.

I'm sure people know and understand she's the star of the show, that something is not questionable. What is being criticizing is how she's being handling the promotion of the tribute episode. Just that.

[Glorfindel]

The thing is Lea is Ryan's mouthpiece, this is what it is. So, is Matt, so is Jane and others of the cast that did interviews for the Tribute.

Fox would have encouraged Lea's PR team to get as many interviews out there, probably promising Lea would get more screentime, which is they would want for their client.

Like others, I see Lea as Ryan's puppet.

I don't know Chris but I very much doubt he would be friends with someone exploiting a friends death, if Lea was doing that.

This is my assumption that Chris was encouraged to do the same as the others, but he probably politely declined.

It's true that all the cast members are under contract of Fox/Glee, and if their bosses say to jump through a hoop they have to jump through the f*cking hoop.

But there are clearly some cast members who have no trouble being used to tow the party line all the time and to sell the product of Glee with their biggest whitened smile, even when it sucks balls, the 'cheerleaders' so to speak, and those who obey and respect their bosses but still manage to express criticism when they think it's important, and/or simply hardly attend events where they can't avoid towing the party line.

The difference in treatment between these 2 types of cast members is very visible in the show imo, and also in the media circus of what Fox is able to manipulate in the award/red carpet 'reward' system (like Darren singing at all those events, while Chris got refused to sing even when he offered).
E.g.: Chris didn't get a TCA award, either because he flat out refused to attend to grieve in public and therefore he didn't get the award, or because Fox did not want him to win the award to not take away the attention from Glee and Lea winning theirs so they could use that to create a Cory tribute and therefore Chris refused to attend. And yes, I'm well aware that this is pure speculation, but it's clear something happened there.

As for Chris not wanting to be friends with someone who exploits the death of a friend: I'm not saying that Lea is cold-heartedly exploiting Cory's death, but she's not objecting to the Glee PR and her own PR team either who are flat out using his death to promote the show and even Lea's public image.

I really really get tired of the Lea hate.

She's the fucking star of the show, I know other resent that ,but it is what it is.

If you think that what we're discussing here stems from us hating Lea or being jealous of her position on the show (esp. in comparison to our idol Chris) you're very wrong.
That accusation is as easily made as the Blarrenstans whining that all the criticism, or 'hate' as they love to call it, about Blaine and Darren stems from a presumed envy that the fans of the other characters/cast members, especially Kurtsies, have of his prominent position on the show.
And just as is the case with the Blarrenstans, when it comes to us talking about Lea now, that accusation is also false.

I do agree that there is a lot of (unfounded) hate for Lea out there, and I don't like it either, but it should be possible for mature people to discuss, speculate and yes: criticize someone without having the 'criticism=jealousy/hate' joker card being pulled to stop an argument.

But if this particular discussion bothers you so much, maybe it can be moved to snark & bark?

[ColferInspired]

The thing is Lea is Ryan's mouthpiece, this is what it is. So, is Matt, so is Jane and others of the cast that did interviews for the Tribute.

Fox would have encouraged Lea's PR team to get as many interviews out there, probably promising Lea would get more screentime, which is they would want for their client.

Like others, I see Lea as Ryan's puppet.

I don't know Chris but I very much doubt he would be friends with someone exploiting a friends death, if Lea was doing that.

This is my assumption that Chris was encouraged to do the same as the others, but he probably politely declined.

It's true that all the cast members are under contract of Fox/Glee, and if their bosses say to jump through a hoop they have to jump through the f*cking hoop.

But there are clearly some cast members who have no trouble being used to tow the party line all the time and to sell the product of Glee with their biggest whitened smile, even when it sucks balls, the 'cheerleaders' so to speak, and those who obey and respect their bosses but still manage to express criticism when they think it's important, and/or simply hardly attend events where they can't avoid towing the party line.

The difference in treatment between these 2 types of cast members is very visible in the show imo, and also in the media circus of what Fox is able to manipulate in the award/red carpet 'reward' system (like Darren singing at all those events, while Chris got refused to sing even when he offered).
E.g.: Chris didn't get a TCA award, either because he flat out refused to attend to grieve in public and therefore he didn't get the award, or because Fox did not want him to win the award to not take away the attention from Glee and Lea winning theirs so they could use that to create a Cory tribute and therefore Chris refused to attend. And yes, I'm well aware that this is pure speculation, but it's clear something happened there.

As for Chris not wanting to be friends with someone who exploits the death of a friend: I'm not saying that Lea is cold-heartedly exploiting Cory's death, but she's not objecting to the Glee PR and her own PR team either who are flat out using his death to promote the show and even Lea's public image.

I really really get tired of the Lea hate.

She's the fucking star of the show, I know other resent that ,but it is what it is.

If you think that what we're discussing here stems from us hating Lea or being jealous of her position on the show (esp. in comparison to our idol Chris) you're very wrong.
That accusation is as easily made as the Blarrenstans whining that all the criticism, or 'hate' as they love to call it, about Blaine and Darren stems from a presumed envy that the fans of the other characters/cast members, especially Kurtsies, have of his prominent position on the show. And just as is the case with the Blarrenstans, when it comes to us talking about Lea now that accusation is also false.

It should be possible for mature people to discuss, speculate and yes: criticize someone without having the 'criticism=jealousy/hate' joker card being pulled to stop an argument.
But if it bothers you so much, maybe this discussion can be moved to snark & bark?

This all just stinks.

I just want Finn's story to end this week, and just maybe mentions here and there, not promoting and exploiting it for a whole season thinking this will save the show, when all they need to do is fix the writing, get rid of McKinley or put more focus on the adults and more on New York.

[Glorfindel]

This all just stinks.

Yes, and the longer it's prolonged the harder it will stink. I hope that after tonight's episode the worst is over.
It's time to literally lay it to rest.

I just want Finn's story to end this week, and just maybe mentions here and there, not promoting and exploiting it for a whole season thinking this will save the show, when all they need to do is fix the writing, get rid of McKinley or put more focus on the adults and more on New York.

This.

[Lottie2303]

I really really get tired of the Lea hate.

She's the fucking star of the show, I know other resent that ,but it is what it is.

If you think that what we're discussing here stems from us hating Lea or being jealous of her position on the show (esp. in comparison to our idol Chris) you're very wrong.

That accusation is as easily made as the Blarrenstans whining that all the criticism, or 'hate' as they love to call it, about Blaine and Darren stems from a presumed envy that the fans of the other characters/cast members, especially Kurtsies, have of his prominent position on the show.
And just as is the case with the Blarrenstans, when it comes to us talking about Lea now, that accusation is also false.

I do agree that there is a lot of (unfounded) hate for Lea out there, and I don't like it either, but it should be possible for mature people to discuss, speculate and yes: criticize someone without having the 'criticism=jealousy/hate' joker card being pulled to stop an argument.

But if this particular discussion bothers you so much, maybe it can be moved to snark & bark?

Thank you for saying this.

[brisallie]

This all just stinks.

I just want Finn's story to end this week, and just maybe mentions here and there, not promoting and exploiting it for a whole season thinking this will save the show, when all they need to do is fix the writing, get rid of McKinley or put more focus on the adults and more on New York.

Me too. Though I think after this episode, some characters will going through some mourning feelings, but probably it won't be so much developed, and I prefer it that way. Or if it is, which I doubt, I want the characters on the show to be the focused, not Finn/Cory.

[Buenos]

I don't need everyone to like the  character of Rachel nor the actress Lea Michele.   I happen to but it's ok others don't.

Ditto Blaine and Darren Criss or any of the other actors/characters of Glee.

However Lea promoting the Tribute episode as part of her job is something professional actors do.  Unlike Brad and Ryan, she hasn't said anything tacky or offensive about Cory or her co stars.

Unless we have evidence to the contrary , I'm going to assume her relationship of over a year with Cory was real, just like I assume the Darren/Mia and Chris/Will are real , simply because unless you have evidence why assume someone is lying.

So questioning her grief when we don't know how any individual processes the death of a loved one seems beyond mean spirited to me.  It's the equivalent of the assholes like Norwegian Wood who implied stuff about Chris not being at the TCA's.

Some people's grief is more publicly evident, others is more private.  It doesn't mean we can gauge how the person is truly feeling and how shitty things are for them even putting up a brave front.  Lea sees this episode as a tribute/memorial for Finn, if being in it is considered self serving, then every working actor in HW is self serving.

That is what I mean by "hate".

I'm just surprised that Some Kurt fans don't  see the irony.  Even Lea's weight loss is somehow suspect under these circumstances?  wTF?

[tanita_mors]

honestly, since cory's weight loss induced by drugs, every single celebrity i see these days that lost a considerable/noticeable amount of weight - my first though is cocaine/heroin. i think that Tinseltown is so warped these days (not that it wasn't back in the golden age as well), that nothing would surprise me out of anyone. after all, we don't really know any of these people. but i do agree with the "innocent until proven guilty" policy.

[Buenos]

honestly, since cory's weight loss induced by drugs, every single celebrity i see these days that lost a considerable/noticeable amount of weight - my first though is cocaine/heroin. i think that Tinseltown is so warped these days (not that it wasn't back in the golden age as well), that nothing would surprise me out of anyone. after all, we don't really know any of these people. but i do agree with the "innocent until proven guilty" policy.

I agree that anybody in Hollywood could be on drugs, including Lea. I'm just saying in the very special circumstances of someone's LI dying suddenly and unexpectedly people question her losing weight as somehow suspect? Sue me but I dunno, Like maybe the coincidence can be linked to his death?

My sister who was thin to begin with lost 15-20 pounds where her husband died, it can happen without drug use.

[bayth]

Ollie is going to be in a webisode series: Break A Hip

[AnneNeville]

I think that regardless of our opinions on Lea, Cory and the veracity of their relationship, we can all agree that we shouldn't police and rate anyone else's grieving. After all, we were all sympathetic with Chris when he spoke up about people dictating to him how to grieve. I think many are raw right now, and I think most of us can agree that there is something somewhat distasteful about how the publicity around Cory's passing and the Glee tribute has been handled. However, even acknowledging that the PR has left something to be desired, I think we should be able to accept every cast members' grief without passing judgement on it.

Although a media circus has been created around these people, they are still people with feelings, just like us.

[AnneNeville]

Ollie is going to be in a webisode series: Break A Hip

A Struck by Lightning alum!

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