Re: Kurt Hummel Spoiler Thread--part 5

[bayth]

This makes me so happy! (But, I'm still not going to be excited about the season until there is evidence that they will rectify the wrongs done to Kurt last season.)

[fantastica]

who cares about the season! I just want lots of Kurt and hopefully some songs and I am not expecting anything storywise... just Kurt being on the screen, living breathing and talking and singing.

[Delight]

The only thing Kurt lost out on in the end was NYADA. For Rachel, that might be the end of everything. For Kurt... when all is said and done it'll barely be a speedbump.

Rachel made dressing up pretty for prom her priority after flubbing her NYADA audition, and needed ego-boosts from prom-rigging by Santana and Quinn, and a nationals solo handed to her on a silver platter by a meek and conceding Tina before she got her act together enough to stalk the NYADA dean. No, this character is not made for resilience.

We'll just have to see how the writers continue to write Kurt's growth and journey. Hopefully some of the outrage and complaints by fans have reached their ears and they do something to rectify their mistake.

don't know if it's true!

Klaine duet and Kurt/Burt scene? Things are looking up for Kurt. Still, I don't trust the writers enough to get too excited.

[opals]

I will also agree that the idea of Rachel and Kurt both managing to get into this single super competative program was a fantasy - that's not the question. What is the question is the result. Going by what Brad was saying - that the storyline was about moving past childish fantasies into a more adult realization of how the real world works and that achieving their goals might not be so simply, then the one who should have gotten into NYADA was Kurt and not Rachel. Rachel was the one operating on her usual childish behaviors - whining, stamping her feet and insisting that she deserved to get a spot because she wants it so much. Kurt was the one who learned from past errors, gaged what was needed to satisfy a very difficult to satisfy judge, and staged his audition accordingly. Yet Kurt is the one punished by not being admitted while Rachel is allowed to continue on her childish fantasy of being oh so special and that being a star is her destiny.

I admittedly have this love/hate relationship with Rachel's character and I could never really figure out why, but I think it has to do with her viewing stardom as an entitlement and her singing is just her means to get there.

Kurt wants to be a star also, but he clearly values other things ahead of fame. Music also seems to be more of way of genuine self expression for Kurt, whereas with Rachel it's all about "being the best".

I find it very humorous when Rachel goes all insane diva at times, but when the writers ask me to believe that she's so much more deserving of that competition solo or NYADA than others I find myself annoyed with the character because she lacks heart and soul.

[ColferGirl]

^ We raged about this a couple of days ago.

It's not as bad as what was said by Ryan and Brad around Graduation Gate, but it's close, very close.

Ooops, sorry that I reposted old news. I must have missed it somehow.

*First half of a flawless post was here*

I do really agree with Brad on one thing, and I've state it before. Unlike Rachel, who is completely incapable of shifting gears and finding another avenue for her abilities if things don't work out the way she planned. We've seen that repeatedly. Kurt, on the other hand can. And unlike Rachel, who is first and only a performer, Kurt has talents that are both deep and broad in scope. Kurt can and will be successful in whatever avenue he chooses to focus his abilities on. The only thing Kurt lost out on in the end was NYADA. For Rachel, that might be the end of everything. For Kurt... when all is said and done it'll barely be a speedbump.

I agree with everything you said 100%. Great post.

don't know if it's true!

YESSSSSSSS!!!

All of these Kurt-related spoilers are making me so excited for season 4. What could be better than a Kurt/Burt scene? I wonder if this will be the goodbye, I'm heading to New York scene....or a scene about Kurt not getting into NYADA...whatever it is, I can't wait to see it!

[tanita_mors]

Kurt/Burt. FINALLY some good news !!!!

[valkeakuulas]

I hate Glee but I love Kurt.
I hate Glee but I love Chris.
I hate Glee but I love me some Burt/Kurt.
Oh, *uck!

This will make us all schizophrenic and masochistic. Rachel living in a la-la land and Kurt trugding through the underworlds with resilience...only on Glee.

@Ranwing: Thank you for keeping us sane with your thoughts, you can always verbalise what we can't because of rage, delierium or simply being stunned to mumbling by RIB+.

[ChrisColferFan1]

I am looking forward to th Burt/ Kurt scene. Hopefully, the actor who plays Burt will be in many episodes next season,

[Glorfindel]

Rachel made dressing up pretty for prom her priority after flubbing her NYADA audition, and needed ego-boosts from prom-rigging by Santana and Quinn, and a nationals solo handed to her on a silver platter by a meek and conceding Tina before she got her act together enough to stalk the NYADA dean. No, this character is not made for resilience.

Problem is: the writers probably think she is. They see Rachel as the big heroine, overcoming all obstacles to win the prize in the end. I doubt they see the last episodes of season 3 as other people handing out undeserved rewards to Rachel, and I seriously doubt they think that Rachel got NYADA by cheating.
The propping up of Quinn, Santana, Tina, Mike and Jesse (by saying Rachel's the best) were not done because Rachel couldn't do it on her own: they were done because Rachel is the best and everyone just wants to gush about her.
To RIB NYADA was not undeserved or accomplished by cheating, but Rachel being resilient and determined (not stubborn, entitled and pushy) and Carmen not being able to resist the greatness that is Rachel Berry.
Rachel's entitlement is not a bad trait or flaw to RIB: it's true, because Rachel's talent entitles her to have everything.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to bash Rachel here, but that's how it was presented to us. Knowing that RIB see nothing wrong in this, knowing that they think that Rachel is a heroine who's actions were all justifiable just because she's entitled as te star of the show, and knowing that she will always be getting this special treatment, is the reason why I really resent her character now.

I think that RIB were shocked, finding out how much the viewers resented Rachel's journey and treatment in the last few episodes, and how much the viewers were appaled by the imbalance between Rachel and Kurt in the NYADA story and Kurt's bad treatment as a result. To them (RIB) it was all about Rachel, and she got her wish: NYADA, and I doubt RIB considered how much people cared about Kurt in this storyline.
After the finale RIB were like: "What? What did we do wrong? Did we do anything wrong? Glee's heroine Rachel is happy, right? That's what Glee is all about, isn't it? What more do you want?"
RIB miscalculated that their massive love for Rachel (and Finchel) is not the same as the viewers of Glee have for this character. A lot of viewers love Rachel, but not at the expense of the other characters they came to love over the seasons. And all the Finchel stupid drama for 3 seasons (and their sloppy kissing scenes) didn't help either. Rachel is the main character of Glee, but she (with Finchel) is sucking the life out of it, the way the show is written now.

I really, really hope RIB will realize this soon, and steer away from the Rachel Berry show.

I admittedly have this love/hate relationship with Rachel's character and I could never really figure out why, but I think it has to do with her viewing stardom as an entitlement and her singing is just her means to get there.

Kurt wants to be a star also, but he clearly values other things ahead of fame. Music also seems to be more of way of genuine self expression for Kurt, whereas with Rachel it's all about "being the best".

I find it very humorous when Rachel goes all insane diva at times, but when the writers ask me to believe that she's so much more deserving of that competition solo or NYADA than others I find myself annoyed with the character because she lacks heart and soul.

I think Rachel has heart and soul, but the trouble is that Rachel the diva comes first. Kurt loses himself in the song when he sings: his own experiences color the song, but he still submits to the song. That's his main strength, but also his weakness: he is willing to serve and sacrifice his own persona for the greater good.
Rachel's persona is so centered around herself, that she has trouble being a servant of the music, and it's still all Rachel being a star, singing on stage. I think she can overcome this, but first she has to be taken down a peg or 2: face some serious adversity, learn how to be a team player, and lose from time to time.
Being selfcentered and stubborn is not a bad thing, but if Rachel wants to become a performer with heart and soul (and a happy person) she will need to find a balance between ambition and being human. She has shown she can be a better person in season 2 (when she befriended Kurt): I always saw that season as her journey in this, but they are back to square 1 now, after Nationals and Carmen Tibideaux.
Season 4, with her in NYADA, could touch upon this, but I doubt RIB will go there: in their eyes Rachel is perfect, and the only adversity she will face is people not seeing how special she is.

It's funny: I like season 2 Rachel the best (except for BIOTA), but it seems that her fans dislike season 2 Rachel the most (and Finchel/Rachel season 3), and want season 1 Rachel back.
But then again: a lot of Kurtsies want season 1 Kurt back too, even though he was a lot nastier and haugthier then. I'm happy with season 3 Kurt and all his development, except for 1 thing: he should stop taking the high road all the damn time.

Kurt clinging to Blaine is another matter (as is one of the most annoying about Finchel as well: I agree with the Rachel fans here), but DWS at least showed that Kurt will not allow Blaine to dominate him, or change his ways and question his dreams to get out of Lima, although I believe that that initially was part of RIB's intention in that storyline (thank you, Chris, for your acting choices).
In a way I'm glad that Darren is not the best actor: it prevents us from a lot of Klaine drama like we get from Finchel. I can't believe that Finchel got all the "I'll follow you wherever you go." drama in season 3, that was so boring and annoying.
And RIB wonder why we're not happy with those last 15 minutes of 'Goodbye'?

[Delight]

^Note the mention of Broadway stardom.

Now, I'm not getting my hopes up just yet, because there is a possibility that the journalist is merely jumping to conclusions from Chris's 'getting to New York' statement.

[ColferInspired]

^Note the mention of Broadway stardom.

Now, I'm not getting my hopes up just yet, because there is a possibility that the journalist is merely jumping to conclusions from Chris's 'going to New York' statement.

I am really really hoping this is from Chris's mouth and not the journalist speculating. Then we will get more broadway songs. But we won't know until the show comes back on air.

Ryan has been known to back track whatever his whim is at the moment. He can become bored with one character and focus on another.

Us Kurtsies were promised an uplifting story for Kurt and we didn't get it. The Rachel stans can't guarantee that Rachel will get all that Ryan is promising.

Chris has probably talked to Ryan and now has an idea were Kurt's story is going.

I won't believe this about Broadway stardom until I see a proper interview from Chris, in his exact words.

[FunnyLady]

To be honest, I don´t care if Kurt stays in Lima or goes to NY. I just want him on screen as much as possible. Because Chris/Kurt is the main reason why I watch Glee !

[BlueJazz]

Kurt and Broadway stardom in the same sentence. I CAN'T EVEN...



I WANT THIS SO BAD IT HURTS

[ChrisColferFan1]

I hope Kurt makes it on Boardway. I don't care if he stays in Lima,as long as he does not to it just or mainly for Blaine.

[Ranwing]

Problem is: the writers probably think she is. They see Rachel as the big heroine, overcoming all obstacles to win the prize in the end. I doubt they see the last episodes of season 3 as other people handing out undeserved rewards to Rachel, and I seriously doubt they think that Rachel got NYADA by cheating.
The propping up of Quinn, Santana, Tina, Mike and Jesse (by saying Rachel's the best) were not done because Rachel couldn't do it on her own: they were done because Rachel is the best and everyone just wants to gush about her.
To RIB NYADA was not undeserved or accomplished by cheating, but Rachel being resilient and determined (not stubborn, entitled and pushy) and Carmen not being able to resist the greatness that is Rachel Berry.
Rachel's entitlement is not a bad trait or flaw to RIB: it's true, because Rachel's talent entitles her to have everything.
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to bash Rachel here, but that's how it was presented to us. Knowing that RIB see nothing wrong in this, knowing that they think that Rachel is a heroine who's actions were all justifiable just because she's entitled as te star of the show, and knowing that she will always be getting this special treatment, is the reason why I really resent her character now.

And this becomes the main reason why, at this stage, I just can't feel anything but irritation and disgust with how Rachel's story is playing out. Season one Rachel was interesting because she was so completely awkward socially and devious in furthering her ambitions, but there was a core of a girl that very deeply wanted to be loved by those around her. There was a vulnerability to Rachel. She might have wanted everything, but it wasn't just handed to her. She had to prove herself worthy of the regard of her teammates to be their lead at first (and given that she had the most experience of any of them as a performer, it was easier to allow her to take lead until the others got their confidence). Will was more willing to allow others at least a chance to compete. She had to earn each of her triumphs.

Fast foward to season three where no competition with Rachel was allowed. It took quiting ND and refusing to return to open up some performance opertunities for Santana and Mercedes (which inadvertantly cut off any options for Kurt, Blaine or Artie to get solos with the TroubleTones deal). The one thing that Rachel had to actually compete for and stand a chance of losing was her NYADA admission and the show proved that it wasn't going to give Rachel a real or significant hurdle without negating its impact. I get that RIB want the audience to root for Rachel as a great talent, but when they go out of their way to clear out any real obsticles or immunize Rachel against the real consequences of failure, they make it very, very hard to sympathize with her. I think that they are aware that they miscaluated how the NYADA resolution would be recieved by the segments of the audience that are vocal but as to whether they will make any significant changes to how Rachel's journey is treated? Doubtful. Not with RM stating that his idea of the series finale would be Rachel having achieved all that she wanted.

I think that RIB were shocked, finding out how much the viewers resented Rachel's journey and treatment in the last few episodes, and how much the viewers were appaled by the imbalance between Rachel and Kurt in the NYADA story and Kurt's bad treatment as a result. To them (RIB) it was all about Rachel, and she got her wish: NYADA, and I doubt RIB considered how much people cared about Kurt in this storyline.
After the finale RIB were like: "What? What did we do wrong? Did we do anything wrong? Glee's heroine Rachel is happy, right? That's what Glee is all about, isn't it? What more do you want?"
RIB miscalculated that their massive love for Rachel (and Finchel) is not the same as the viewers of Glee have for this character. A lot of viewers love Rachel, but not at the expense of the other characters they came to love over the seasons. And all the Finchel stupid drama for 3 seasons (and their sloppy kissing scenes) didn't help either. Rachel is the main character of Glee, but she (with Finchel) is sucking the life out of it, the way the show is written now.

I find it really surprising that they forgot just how important Kurt and Chris are in the pubic eye. That they forgot Chris is a GG winner, multiple Emmy nominee and one of Time's most influential people. They elevated his character, but then tried to backtrack and shift his storyline as being secondary to all of the other major story arcs. It was like they were trying to remind us "I know that you all love Kurt, but this is the character you all should adore." And they destroyed multiple characters, not just Kurt, in order to elevate Rachel the way they did. Every other character that came into contact with her was deminished as a result. And that is a toxic when you have a show with an ensemble cast. Rachel is a lead, not the lead. She was never treated as such until the back end of season 3, which is why the propping up and explicity biased treatment came across as so jarring

I really, really hope RIB will realize this soon, and steer away from the Rachel Berry show.

I think Rachel has heart and soul, but the trouble is that Rachel the diva comes first. Kurt loses himself in the song when he sings: his own experiences color the song, but he still submits to the song. That's his main strength, but also his weakness: he is willing to serve and sacrifice his own persona for the greater good.
Rachel's persona is so centered around herself, that she has trouble being a servant of the music, and it's still all Rachel being a star, singing on stage. I think she can overcome this, but first she has to be taken down a peg or 2: face some serious adversity, learn how to be a team player, and lose from time to time.
Being selfcentered and stubborn is not a bad thing, but if Rachel wants to become a performer with heart and soul (and a happy person) she will need to find a balance between ambition and being human. She has shown she can be a better person in season 2 (when she befriended Kurt): I always saw that season as her journey in this, but they are back to square 1 now, after Nationals and Carmen Tibideaux.
Season 4, with her in NYADA, could touch upon this, but I doubt RIB will go there: in their eyes Rachel is perfect, and the only adversity she will face is people not seeing how special she is.

I get that Rachel feels like she needs to perform in order to live, but I'm not under the impression that she really enjoys it. She loves the response she gets, but it's more the response that seems to drive her - the acknowledgment that she's "the best" and "a star" rather than loving just performing. She wants to accolaides - the rewards and trophies and titles and performing seems more for her a vehicle to achieving those. If her fathers were steering her towards a medical career, or to be a gymnast, I think that she would show the exact same drive and focus - she's be fulfilled so long as she get the acknowledgement that she's the best ever.

Kurt, on the other hand, I think has a more pure love of performing. Otherwise he would have quit after being constantly rejected for more prominent parts. He's satisfied to just be on stage, even in a supporting role, because it allows him to perform. No one steered him in that direction (given who his father is, that's obvious). He does it because he wants to do it. And it comes out in his performances. There's an emotional resonance in them that I just don't get from Rachel. I get her technical skills, but the emotional flavor of her performances comes across as manipulative and cold. There's no sublety to her performances - she smashes you over the head with the emotion that the song is supposed to protray rather than allowing it to just flow organically. As you said, she doesn't surrender to the music. Instead, she beats it into submission.

What Rachel needs at this point is someone to seriously put the breaks on her fantasies about what being a performer means. That it's not just applause and ego boosting. That she will be acknowledged as a technician, but not as a real talent the way Barbra was. Right now, Rachel is an imitator of great icons. A good one, but still an imitator. It will hold her back from the levels of stardom that she craves.

Kurt's greatest strength is also his weakness - he gives himself fully and totally into his performances. But because there's no emotional distance for him, when his performances aren't recieved as well as he would hope, it's as if Kurt himself is being rejected as a person. That can make his failures feel even more disheartening. He can find the balance, of allowing pure emotion to flow in his performances while at the same time keeping his heart protected so that if he is rejected, it's his perfromance that's rejected and not Kurt himself. It'll allow him to weather the hardships of life better.

It's funny: I like season 2 Rachel the best (except for BIOTA), but it seems that her fans dislike season 2 Rachel the most (and Finchel/Rachel season 3), and want season 1 Rachel back.
But then again: a lot of Kurtsies want season 1 Kurt back too, even though he was a lot nastier and haugthier then. I'm happy with season 3 Kurt and all his development, except for 1 thing: he should stop taking the high road all the damn time.

Kurt clinging to Blaine is another matter (as is one of the most annoying about Finchel as well: I agree with the Rachel fans here), but DWS at least showed that Kurt will not allow Blaine to dominate him, or change his ways and question his dreams to get out of Lima, although I believe that that initially was part of RIB's intention in that storyline (thank you, Chris, for your acting choices).
In a way I'm glad that Darren is not the best actor: it prevents us from a lot of Klaine drama like we get from Finchel. I can't believe that Finchel got all the "I'll follow you wherever you go." drama in season 3, that was so boring and annoying.
And RIB wonder why we're not happy with those last 15 minutes of 'Goodbye'?

Season 2 Rachel was where she was most balanced. She had her ambition intact, but she'd become a bit softer and kinder, especially towards Kurt (and I agree that BIOTA was the exception). She still threw her tantrams and was an overly dramatic twit at times, but she was showing awareness of the feelings of others. We saw that in how she treated Kurt, and how she responded to Mercedes in NON. She wasn't on a continuous scorched earth strategy towards the amitions of others. The behavior with Finn was maddening, but everything else with Rachel was showing real improvement and growth (growth that was shoved aside in the back end of season 3). I can understand why the Rachel stans really hate Finchel because Rachel seemed to lose whatever IQ points she had around him. The realtionship deminished both of them.

I think that Kurt's relationship with Klaine is a completely different animal. Kurt did soften somewhat and I got irritated with him constantly taking the higher road with conflicts (though his snark did make a long-overdue reappearance when he was fueding with Sebastian and Rachel). He did prove in DWS that he loves Blaine and he's willing to make compromises (which is critical in a healthy realtionship) but he won't allow Blaine to walk all over him. He will stand up for himself. And I appreciate the fact that Chris is able to make up for Darren's weaknesses as an actor without making Darren look badly. It's something that they failed to do with Naya and Heather, and it allows Kurt and Blaine to come across as more balanced. I'm actually glad that Kurt and Blaine's relationship drama was due more to external influences rather than their personality weaknesses (except for DWS, which in the end was all about them) because it prevented their realtionship from being so obnoxious that pretty much everyone except the hardcore shippers would be rooting for them to split up.

For Kurt in season 4, I want to see the strength that he showed all along, the snark for those that deserve it (and the world is full of hapless idiots for him to vent on), but to retain the softness that has come with his relationship with Blaine. I like this gentleness and lovingness that Blaine has brought into Kurt's life. And I want to see Kurt's strength and faith in himself and his abilities to recover from what they did to him in season 3. In season 1, that confidence was too much a defence mechanism against the bullies that tormented him. I'd like to see him internalize that confidence and make it less of a shield and more of a source of motivation to keep him going during the hard times that he'll face in the real world.

[fantastica]

We know journalists sometimes make mistakes such as facts or even names. So don't count on it. But unless sip is a recurring character they wont show him doing much w fashion either.

[M&M]

I am going to fingers cross so hard for Broadway stardom, but what happens or what the cast is told at the beginning of the season is never what it is at the end of the season. Except for Rachel, since we know Rachel/fame is endgame.

[Divalicious]

What a lot of great posts this Sunday morning (at least here on the West Coast). I am happy with Kurt's progression as a character, and agree fully the taking of the high road was taken to a ridiculous degree. I hope to see some snark and spark in NY, but his overall evolution remains intact. Kurt is far more grown up than the rest of ND kids, he has suffered real loss and adversity, and it has given him the resilience that we keep hearing about. Kurt is strong, and sure enough of himself to be flexible. Rachel, on the other hand, remains totally unsure of herself, only sure of her talent, and hooks her existence on said talent. She said in season 2 without her voice she would be nothing without her voice, and then meets the quadraplegic gent, and had the most uncomfortable duet with him to show how she has learned. But the writers don't let her keep lessons, because if she evolved, what would they do with her. She is the center of their writing plans, and they need that center to remain stable. So they change everything and everyone around her to suit the storyline.

I agree the writers have no idea that we the audience are perceiving Rachel as entitled, not deserving (unless you are a stan, and then Chris should look to his seventh in line for the English throne, because I am sure they expect her to be sixth). Rachel is extremely popular, and they probably thought they were servicing a lot of the audience with the bow before Rachel last episodes. What they don't realize is that most watchers like more than just Rachel, and want to see a little love thrown their way. They also probably thought, we can have Kurt lose here at the end, because we have all next year to deal with his journey. Season 1 was kind of even for Kurt, he won and he lost. Season 2, he won a bit more, but it was overshadowed by his crush on Finn which impacted him for 2 seasons. They made him St. Kurt, which many hated, but they also started taking successes away from him, because you can't reward a stalker if it is a boy. Stalking girls, okay and hilarious, boys are threatening and scary. Season 3 was totally payback for him getting more spotlight in season 2. Ryan had an interview where he spoke about how they weren't going to give Kurt so much story, at the sacrifice of other characters. I wish I could remember where that interview was, so I could accurately quote. Funny thing is, they did the exact thing with Rachel season 3, they sacrificed so many other characters for her storyline, whereas, realistically, Kurt's story pushed story along.

Burt and Carol got married, Finn finally vented on his uncomfortableness with Kurt's crush (even if he never once used the word no, which still angers me, THAT line), the Kurt-Rachel rivalry over Finn's affections was finally done, Kurt was able to voice his loneliness. This even impacted Kurt's beginning friendship with Sam, which never did recover. Kurt's story changes story, whereas Rachel's story keeps things the same, Rachel on top, everyone else amazed with her talent. On a side note I really wanted a scene where Kurt apologized to Finn about scaring him with his crush, and then brings in how he would never want anyone to feel the way that Karofsky made him feel (before retrograde) and Finn's horrified realization how badly he made Kurt feel. How over the top his reaction was, because he knew, deep down, Kurt would never physically hurt him, he was just tired of being uncomfortable with Kurt's crush. Finn takes the easy road, and instead of taking Kurt aside and telling him how he felt, he had to be pushed and said it in the worst possible way. Where Kurt did say no, and stated in very understandable terms, and it was not heeded.

Now, we have season 4, I really think we will see a little Rachel not winning everything, it won't be her entire story arch, because that is destined in the stars to have blazing levels of success. But we will see her struggling, and then her friends will be in NY to support her, what intrigues me, this is now the adult world, this is people trying to carve out their own future and successes. I don't think they will be so conceding to Rachel's desires, plus her desires are now focused at NYADA, Kurt and Santana, and Finn, whenever he shows up, won't be able to change things there. Let's see Rachel take resilience lessons from Kurt, instead of taking all the songs. Let her acknowledge that she's had it easy, being a big talent in a small pond, and now she really has to earn her way. It's a long road to make Rachel more palatable to me, she can't be a diva in the adult world, and not have smacked down by the divas already there. Make me care and worry for Rachel, otherwise, I won't even bother with watching her scenes. I've had enough of her songs and success, I am bored.

[Ranwing]

Now, we have season 4, I really think we will see a little Rachel not winning everything, it won't be her entire story arch, because that is destined in the stars to have blazing levels of success. But we will see her struggling, and then her friends will be in NY to support her, what intrigues me, this is now the adult world, this is people trying to carve out their own future and successes. I don't think they will be so conceding to Rachel's desires, plus her desires are now focused at NYADA, Kurt and Santana, and Finn, whenever he shows up, won't be able to change things there. Let's see Rachel take resilience lessons from Kurt, instead of taking all the songs. Let her acknowledge that she's had it easy, being a big talent in a small pond, and now she really has to earn her way. It's a long road to make Rachel more palatable to me, she can't be a diva in the adult world, and not have smacked down by the divas already there. Make me care and worry for Rachel, otherwise, I won't even bother with watching her scenes. I've had enough of her songs and success, I am bored.

That's a fantastic observation Divalicious. Kurt, Santana and maybe Finn might be in NY, but their ability to support Rachel is going to be limited to moral support. None of them will be in the classrooms at NYADA with Rachel. They won't be in a position to protect her or interceed on her behalf. They can provide support from outside NYADA, but besides patting her on the back and reassuring her that she's wonderful, but that's it. No one is going to be able to sacrifice their own ambitions to ease Rachel's way.

And that is how it should be. Kurt and Santana should be focused first and foremost on their own careers and ambitions. They are also building their lives and that needs to be job #1. Not boosting Rachel's fragile ego. Kurt is starting from square one and needs to focus every ounce of his effort on himself. After that, Kurt and Santana have their own love lives to focus on - no sorting out Rachel's mess because she can't figure things out with Finn. After they take care of their own business, they can offer some support to Rachel.

The biggest problem with Rachel's story is that they are making it very, very difficult to want to root for Rachel. I admire strong, ambitious women, but Rachel is only ambitious. She's not strong at all. Not when the chips are down. So the show compensates by never really allowing the chips to be down for her. Not for long. Rachel is on of the teflon characters, nothing sticks to her for long. And that kind of character gets very borning after awhile. Without some real suspence (will she or won't she?), there's little to engage the audience about her story. And I'm a firm believer that characters grown through adversity far more than when things go well. Rachel has the advantage of having lived a very pampered, sheltered life aimed solely as setting her up for life on the stage (which again leads me back to the question of if she really wants this or it's what she was taught to want by her fathers). But that set up a big disadvantage for her too. She's very, very immature in her world view, her understanding of what it will take to be successful and her actual standing as a performer when compared to others. By not allowing Rachel to fail, and actually have the failures stick so that she can learn from the experience, you have a character that is not evolving at all.

[Buenos]

I used to love Rachel, and I still do after a fashion. But the show is trying so hard to turn her into a whiny, needy self entitled bitch who all other characters must bow to her special talent that it's becoming exhausting to hang onto my Rachel love.

[Buenos]

I used to love Rachel, and I still do after a fashion. But the show is trying so hard to turn her into a whiny, needy self entitled bitch who all other characters must bow to her special talent that it's becoming exhausting to hang onto my Rachel love.

What did her character "learn" or "grow" from having choked the most important audition of her career? Absolutely nothing, other then through prom queen, Nationals and NyADA that she truly is the most special of all.

[Glorfindel]

Sometimes I feel a bit ashamed that Rachel is getting so much flak lately: it must be hard on (a lot of) her fans (not the snotty ones who think that the NYADA solution was 'realistic', smh ). We all remember how Kurt on several occasions has been spit out by large parts of the fandom.
But I too cannot help but be turned off from Rachel completely now. I never really loved her, but she was an interesting character who showed some growth and progress, and Hummelberry were good together. The 'For Good' scene is one of my favorite scenes ever.

Finn always got a lot of hate for his ~hero status on the show, but despite some really douchey moves on his part, he's still my 2nd favorite character on Glee after Kurt.
Will is an aweful teacher, especially to Kurt, but I still want to like him, and I can reason his actions in ND away by telling myself that the writers choose the songs, not Mr. Schue.
I never really liked Blaine or felt the attraction others felt for him, but if he was written a lot better (like in NBK) or more in the background (like in Choke) I could still enjoy him.
Sue has changed persona multiple times, but Jane Lynch is such a good actress, that the little snipbits of humanity her character gets handed, she mangese to turn them into new layers of sympathy for Sue.
All characters are written badly, but I can still root for most of them because of this lovely cast.

But Rachel..... I just can't root for her anymore, even though Lea Michele is a good actress and an excellent singer. They really ruined her for me.
Maybe, just maybe, season 4 will restore some sympathy for Rachel again, although the spoilers do not bode well. Lea and Chris work really well together and their duets are divine. I want to be able to at least tolerate Rachel again, so I can love my Hummelberry.

[Ranwing]

Sometimes I feel a bit ashamed that Rachel is getting so much flak lately: it must be hard on (a lot of) her fans (not the snotty ones who think that the NYADA solution was 'realistic', smh ). We all remember how Kurt on several occasions has been spit out by large parts of the fandom.

I actually started off really, really liking Rachel. She and Kurt had struck a certain resonence in me and reminded me in a lot of ways of my own high school experience. I loved the idea of a painfully socially awkward girl who was struggling to find her nitch in the world, who used her talent both as a shield to protect herself and to validate her worth as a person. The girl who desperated wanted not only to be acknowledged for her talent, but to have real friends as well and having those two desires constantly in conflict. Except for the Finchel drama and BIOTA, I loved season 2 Rachel, because she was starting to see things beyond just herself and her own ambitions (though she didn't lose her ambitions).

The problem came when Rachel couldn't be just a tremendously talented girl in a school that didn't appreciate people like her. The show had to turn her underdog status into a pure sham. She had to be the most talented performer ever, with nothing that wasn't in her capabilities. For a girl that supposedly wasn't "the pretty girl" she had more relationships than any of the popular girls in ND (if you discount Santana's and Brittany's bed hopping), including Jacob Ben Israel panting after her. She was the smartest (supposedly given that they brought up her GPA several times), the most involvied (from all the school clubs she had joined). And in the end she had everyone, including the popular girls, falling over themselves to help her achieve her goals. It just got to be too much, and every other character seemed now to exist to support her and her story.

But I too cannot help but be turned off from Rachel completely now. I never really loved her, but she was an interesting character who showed some growth and progress, and Hummelberry were good together. The 'For Good' scene is one of my favorite scenes ever.

I loved Hummelberry at first. Probably longer than is healthy. I loved their duet in Duets, and "For Good" is one of the single best vocal performances on the show. These were two characters that deep down were kindred spirits and "got" one another in a way that no one else could. The problem came when Kurt was systematically destroyed in order to boost Rachel's story. When his storyline became joined at the hip with Rachel's, it became very obvious with the arrival of the NYADA finalist letters that what happeend to Kurt in this shared storyline would always take a back seat to what happened to Rachel. Kurt's triumphs were always hamstrung by Rachel's drama. And that continued to the end of the season where Rachel gets her triumphant arrival in NY, while Kurt didn't even get a second of being comforted by anyone over his rejection. Unfortunately that pretty well soured me on Hummelberry. It seems that no character can share a storyline with Rachel (Kurt, Jesse, Finn, Santana, Quinn) and not end up sacrificed for her benefit.

But Rachel..... I just can't root for her anymore, even though Lea Michele is a good actress and an excellent singer. They really ruined her for me.
Maybe, just maybe, season 4 will restore some sympathy for Rachel again, although the spoilers do not bode well. Lea and Chris work really well together and their duets are divine. I want to be able to at least tolerate Rachel again, so I can love my Hummelberry.

The show needs to bring Rachel back down to earth. What made her appealing to me in season one was that while she was a socially inept teenager with an overblown sense of entitlement, nothing just got handed to her. She actually had to compete for things, and didn't get everything she wanted. Will wasn't so fast to indulge her demands (and actually held his ground against her demands fairly well). She failed on occasion. She gambled on Cabaret being a launching pad for her in a way that ND didn't and had to go crawling back to ND when that gamble blew up in her face. It allowed me to be sympathic for her. By having Rachel succeed all the time (or worse, be rewarded in ways that defy credulity) they made her a rather insufferable creature that just isn't fun to watch any longer. When the end result of any struggles are preordeined to being in Rachel's favor all the time, it just becomes dull viewing. No one wants to watch a boxing match when you know before the first punch is thrown who's going to win.

The NYADA story can be that for Rachel if the writers have the guts to step back from the cliff that they've been tossing everything over. Let Rachel really face adversity. Let her fail every now and then and not have the consequences of those failures expunged all the time. NYADA can't be interesting if the worst thing that Rachel faces is a teacher that doesn't instantly fall at her feet in awe of her talent. Let her finish the semester still as the worst dancer in her class. Let her chances of succeeding in NYADA be in real doubt, and let her start questioning if NYADA is the right environment for someone like her. Reintroduce doubt and suspence into her story. Maybe then I can stop eyerolling each time she shows up on my tv.

[tanita_mors]

post by fireangel611 from the choir room

Based on spoiler pics of Kurt at the airport with his tiny luggage obviously not fit for his massive wardrobe I hope the following happens:

[Jellyrolls]

LOL. That's pretty funny.

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