5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

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What did you think of the episode ?

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Total Votes : 22

Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 4/10/2014, 4:38 am

Ranwing wrote:I'm actually glad that Kurt's story was isolated from the other storylines because my biggest fear was that it would just end up being used as a plot device to further the storylines o other characters. They might have stinted on overall screen time, but Kurt's story was about himself and his increasing confidence and bravery. So I have no complaints on that end.
Oh, I'm glad for this too. At least his storyline wasnt tainted that much with derp faces and attempts at ~acting.
I just meant Kurt's storyline should have been the A plot, and for God's sake: his friends should have been affected a little bit more.

opals wrote:I'm gonna be a rude bitch here, and say it was the acting. I felt more emotion coming out of Chris for that random stranger at the opening than I did from Lea, Darren, Amber, and Kevin at Kurt's bedside. Generally speaking I think Lea's a good actress and Kevin is at least decent, but the acting was just underwhelming in that scene.
Totally agree.
Funny enough the only one of the other 'kids' I thought pulled the concern and shocked looks off well in this episode was Chord. Both in the first scene and later at Kurt's bedside.


I get that Kurt is the character most often rolled out for the PSA's that Murphy is so fond of, and that Kurt being the
target of gay bashing bullies is a bit repetitive. Do you know what I appreciate? While the scenario may be a bit of a rehash, Kurt's reactions aren't. Yes, he's always been resilient and strong in many ways, but I'm sensing more confidence and less fear from his character.
Yes. This time Kurt just seemed so fed up with it all, even his own father at first when he scolded him for running into that alley.
He was defiant and determined to take his own course, calmly telling his dad the reasons why he did what he did and that he wouldn't back down anymore.

So far he has always accepted his faith, hurt in silence, shrugged it off and moved on, knowing he had to do it alone but still yearning for friendships and recognition,... but this time imo there was this feeling of acceptance again but also of standing above everyone else and their petty quarrels, and not being forced into having to do it all alone because noone cared but actually choosing to do so.

Kurt seemed strangely detached from whatever his friends were going through afterwards, and although he was happy with their praise after his song and even pulled them into his performance, he didn't need their praise to know that he killed it: he was completely confident all by himself.

ColferInspired wrote:
fantastica wrote:^ Ian writes Kurt well. that's about all i know.

True he does.

He writes Kurt as he should be written.
That's true for the most part (although there was 'I Do' which I think had a very OOC Kurt), but I feel like Ian has no real interest in Kurt and doesn't care for him, possibly because he didn't create him at first in the lay-out of Glee.

His episodes usually have little Kurt in it (e.g. he wrote 'The Sue Sylvester Shuffle', 'Night of Neglect', 'Audition', 'A Very Glee Christmas', 'The Spanish Teacher'), and he was the one who initially wrote Blaine resqueing Kurt in 'Prom Queen'.
And never forget that he wrote Kurt getting officer Krupke in WSS (although that probably was a mutual decision).  Mad

-ETA-
fantastica wrote:^ wait... these are SPOILERS but i forgot that too. you are right that it's WSS all over again. shame on you glee!
I rest my case.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  ColferInspired on 4/10/2014, 4:47 am

I should enjoy next weeks episode, but I just know 18 will tear it all down so Blaine is better than Kurt once again, as these writers want us to must believe.  :angry: 

Wonder how many effeminphobic jokes we will get?

Oh, how about to get all the haters squealing, take cracks at Kurt's singing voice.  :angry:
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 4/12/2014, 9:03 am

I know I'm in a very tiny minority when I say that I didn't like the Burt/Kurt conversation in 'Bash' (altough Mike and Chris did a great job), but I want to talk about it anyway.
I already quoted a bit of Vulture's recap because I was glad that at least I wasn't the only one who felt that way, but that was only part of what she said about that scene. I only got to read the entire Vulture recap this morning, and there's more, so I thought I'd share:

What I find compelling about the assault story line itself is that it furthers the “nobody puts Kurt Hummel in a corner” theme that’s been building all season. There was a time on Glee when Kurt was too frightened to even be, and seeing him run to someone else’s defense (even with tragic consequences) is very powerful. It might not get better, but he certainly has. Even when Burt bursts into his hospital room and asks him what he was thinking, Kurt doesn’t back down. He knows he did the right thing, and doesn’t promise to never do it again. As great as the Kurt/Burt chemistry is, there’s a lot in Burt’s anger toward Kurt and the situation that I’m not comfortable with. It sounds an awful lot like Burt is suggesting that only strong, straight men should beat up strong, straight gay-bashers (who are, according to Glee, exclusively men in pickup trucks), and that makes me extraordinarily uncomfortable.





I mean, I guess the idea is that no one should beat up anyone, but it’s a little icky. But we’re still best friends, Mike O’Malley. Nothing can keep us apart.
x

This is exactly how I interpreted the scene. The PSA lesson is that calling 911 is better than running into an alley alone, and I agree with that.
But the way it's worded feels as if we're to take from this that running into an alley is more or less okay when you're a jock or Burt Hummel, but because Kurt was 'only' a kicker it was not okay for him to do it.

And Kurt sort of confirms that reasoning behind those awkwardly formed thoughts from Burt by defiantly responding that that sort of attitude (Burt's 'jock' remark) make guys like those gaybashers think they can get away with it (because some gay males are 'twinks' instead of jocks).
So if Kurt interpreted what Burt said that way (meaning it's his more slender physique that made Burt scold him and think he shouldn't have fought back, when it simultaneously also makes him a popular target for a gay bashing) then imo Burt must have meant it that way too (as these Glee writers can't write decent dialogue if their lives depended on it). And Burt didn't deny it. Therefore that whole exchange of lines just felt awkward to me.

And mind you: the 'jock' remark and Kurt's response ("That's the same attitude that makes these guys think they can do whatever they want") were made before Burt started the PSA that Kurt really should have called the cops or gotten some other sort of help (which Burt was 100% right about).
And after that PSA part Burt even tells Kurt that he shouldn't do it again, unless Burt's next to him so they can take them together! I mean: what kind of message is that?

What if it had been a jock character like Finn, Puck, Mike, Sam or Karofsky, who had run into that alley instead of Kurt (who the show still thinks less muscular and 'manly' up to this episode)?
If someone had hit a bulky, strong guy like Karofsky on the back of the head right away (what basically happened to Kurt) he would have been just as powerless as well. Or if they indeed had a knife or gun. And imo bravery and a quick mind, even flexibility and being quick on your feet, can make up for a lot of muscles. Plus some people are just the "fight" and not the "flight" type, without contemplating on the spot in a split second if they have the right physique for it. Some women would also do the same.
But like I said: nothing of that can win from a brick or any other weapon, so basically: running into an alley like that means you're putting yourself at risk, no matter what your physique is.

And I honestly wonder if they would have done this particular PSA ("You're so stupid for running into that alley, Kurt!") if it had been one of those jock 'hero' characters, like Finn, Puck or Sam, even Burt himself (and God forbid: Blaine). And my gut feeling says "no".
Besides: how many times do we see tv heroes, even those who are not cops or regular tough guys in the tv series or movie they're in, do stuff like this, and they never get scolded for it like Kurt was?
I understand the importance of telling young, impulsive people that running into alleys without calling backup is not the best idea, but the way it all was worded in this (important! cause best dad of the world Burtis saying it) scene it became just such a muddled message imo.  saispa


On top of that there's also this:
Burt saying to Kurt that he had been fighting too (after Kurt tells him he has been figting these guys a "really long time'), when Kurt was just telling him something very important after a traumatic experience which Burt should have picked up on as a father (that he hoped he'd get a scar so people would be finally able to see that he hurt, and not only on the inside), rubbed me the wrong way too. 
Because yes, Burt has been fighting too, but is being the father of a gay son so hard in comparison to actually being that gay son? Burt certainly deserves praise for being a decent father, and if they had brought up e.g. his wife's and/or Finn's recent death in that conversation I would have accepted it in the grand scheme of things and felt more sympathy for the man, but again: the way it was worded it didn't feel like this was the right moment for to point out that you had been fighting too when you come visit your freshly beaten up son.


The least Burt could have done was wait a few days before being mad at Kurt. I understand he had those feelings as a dad (and I can relate as a mom, but when you're a parent your job is to put your kid before yourself, and that imo also means holding back your own feelings of anger and fear till after your son is off the painkillers and preferably out of the hospital, and not just spit your anger into his face the first moment you get to see him after he wakes up.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/12/2014, 10:10 am

I actually took Kurt wanting a scar to remain as different, not to show he hurt on the inside, (he said he didn't) but because he was PROUD of what he did and wanted to have the battle wound to remind others (or himself) what he did.

Burt gets a leave for me because he was worried and upset.  He's never been the "perfect" dad everyone claims , his remarks at times can be jarringly wrong (notably the infamous exchange of Kurt writing his own parts in "I am Unicorn").  

What distinguishes him is the unrelenting support he give Kurt.  You always get the feeling you would have to drag his body away before he backs down from what he believes or stubbornly clings to.  In that sense he's unstoppable, and so I completely understood Kurt saying "I'm your son."

What Kurt did was not back down, and I doubt if he will next down.

The bad thing was that like so many scenes on Glee, the  bashing scene itself was sketchily portrayed. I mean, how did Kurt so quickly know it was a gay bashing like it appeared. It all happened in a flash, and I'm sorry when you see someone getting hurt, sometimes you just REACT, especially if you think someone's life is in danger.
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  ColferInspired on 4/12/2014, 10:23 am

Buenos wrote:I actually took Kurt wanting a scar to remain as different, not to show he hurt on the inside, (he said he didn't) but because he was PROUD of what he did and wanted to have the battle wound to remind others (or himself)  what he did.

Burt gets a leave for me because he was worried and upset.  He's never been the "perfect" dad everyone claims , his remarks at times can be jarringly wrong (notably the infamous exchange of Kurt writing his own parts in "I am Unicorn").  

What distinguishes him is the unrelenting support he give Kurt.  You always get the feeling you would have to drag his body away before he backs down from what he believes or stubbornly clings to.  In that sense he's unstoppable, and so I completely understood Kurt saying "I'm your son."

What Kurt did was not back down, and I doubt if he will next down.

The bad thing was that like so many scenes on Glee, the  bashing scene itself was sketchily portrayed.  I mean, how did Kurt so quickly know it was a gay bashing like it appeared.  It all happened in a flash, and I'm sorry when you see someone getting hurt, sometimes you just REACT, especially if you think someone's life is in danger.

I think a lot of it was edited, and by what I saw badly edited from reports by fans that were that night by what they heard and saw.

Was the F word used by one of the attackers as one of the fans that was there that night when they were filming said they heard it?
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Ranwing on 4/12/2014, 10:33 am

Burt's not a perfect dad. He's a real one. He makes mistakes. He admits that more often than not, he doesn't understand Kurt very much. They don't have too many areas of mutual understanding and a lot of their relationship was conscious work on both their parts in order to maintain a bond that they both desperately wanted. It's not an idealized parent/child relationship. But it's the mistakes and rough edges that make it all the more profound for me.

I give But a lot of leeway here because I cannot imagine how he felt getting that phone call that Kurt had been hurt. Especially when you consider that they just lost Finn not so long ago. Burt had always lived with the fear that Kurt might be attacked physically because of his sexuality, but while Kurt was living in Lima, he could physically protect his son. He could step in if he knew that Kurt was having difficulty, even pull him from school. He felt like he had some control over the situation because Kurt was physically close by and because Kurt was still a minor and Burt could tell him what to do (even if Kurt didn't often listen).

Now Kurt is not only living far away, but he's a full adult. He's out of Burt's direct control and he can no longer tell Kurt what to do. More importantly, Burt now recognized that he can no longer protect Kurt. Kurt is out in the world where anything can happen and it will be totally out of Burt's hands. That his only child is flying solo and he can't have the illusion that Kurt will always be safe has got to be totally terrifying for Burt. That he could lose his son and there is absolutely nothing he can do to prevent it. So I can buy his initial burst of anger at Kurt, because I immediately saw that it wasn't really anger. It was fear. He was absolutely terrified. And every instinct he had was telling him to wrap Kurt up in cotton and put him away to keep him safe forever, but he can't do that anymore. Kurt is a man in his own right, and as an adult he'll be making decisions that Burt won't like. I loved Kurt standing up for himself, reminding Burt that he's a man and not a child that needs to be protected any longer.

So I totally buy all of Burt's conflicted feelings. Pride that Kurt is so brave and willing to fight for others. Fear that what he'd believed was a safe place for Kurt isn't quite so safe. Terror that he could have lost Kurt that night. Anger that he can't force Kurt to do what he wanted any longer or protect him. And it's only because Mike and Chris are the kind of actors that they are that we can get all these layers of emotion between them.


Last edited by Ranwing on 4/12/2014, 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/12/2014, 10:38 am

Ranwing wrote:Burt's not a perfect dad. He's a real one. He makes mistakes. He admits that more often than not, he doesn't understand Kurt very much. They don't have too many areas of mutual understanding and a lot of their relationship was conscious work on both their parts in order to maintain a bond that they both desperately wanted. It's not an idealized parent/child relationship. But it's the mistakes and rough edges that make it all the more profound for me.

I give But a lot of leeway here because I cannot imagine how he felt getting that phone call that Kurt had been hurt. Especially when you consider that they just lost Finn not so long ago. Burt had always lived with the fear that Kurt might be attacked physically because of his sexuality, but while Kurt was living in Lima, he could physically protect his son. He could step in if he knew that Kurt was having difficulty, even pull him from school. He felt like he had some control over the situation because Kurt was physically close by and because Kurt was still a minor and Burt could tell him what to do (even if Kurt didn't often listen).

Now Kurt is not only living far away, but he's a full adult. He's out of Burt's direct control and he can no longer tell Kurt what to do. More importantly, Burt now recognized that he can no longer protect Kurt. Kurt is out in the world where anything can happen and it will be totally out of Burt's hands. That his only child is flying solo and he can't have the illusion that Kurt will always be safe has got to be totally terrifying for Burt. That he could lose his son and there is absolutely nothing he can do to prevent it. So I can buy his initial burst of anger at Kurt, because I immediately saw that it wasn't really anger. It was fear. He was absolutely terrified. And every instinct he had was telling him to wrap Kurt up in cotton and put him away to keep him safe forever, but he can't do that anymore. Kurt is a man in his own right, and as an adult he'll be making decisions that Burt won't like. I loved Kurt standing up for himself, reminding Kurt that he's a man and not a child that needs to be protected any longer.

So I totally buy all of Burt's conflicted feelings. Pride that Kurt is so brave and willing to fight for others. Fear that what he'd believed was a safe place for Kurt isn't quite so safe. Terror that he could have lost Kurt that night. Anger that he can't force Kurt to do what he wanted any longer or protect him. And it's only because Mike and Chris are the kind of actors that they are that we can get all these layers of emotion between them.

It's not often i say this, but perfect post as far as what I thought of their scene.

With Burt/Kurt sometimes I feel it's damned if you do, and damned if you don't.  Others think their relationship is too idealized.  Go figgure.  Burt has never been the most enlightened father in the world, he actually consistently gets things wrong as far as PC things to say, but ultimately it doesn't matter because Mike O'Malley evokes this sense for the character that Burt has an innate fairness that can't be suppressed, despite his own fears, bias and relative "ignorance".

I think you can hear someone calling the other guy the "F" word in that bashing scene if I'm not mistaken. So more dialogue was probably taken out from the alley. I guess showing once again in interminable scenes that Sam is as dumb as hit and an ignorant jackass was too "important" to edit out.
For fucked up badly  edited Glee, that was bad even for Glee.  And that's a high bar.
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Ranwing on 4/12/2014, 10:47 am

Buenos wrote:I actually took Kurt wanting a scar to remain as different, not to show he hurt on the inside, (he said he didn't) but because he was PROUD of what he did and wanted to have the battle wound to remind others (or himself)  what he did.

I took it as Kurt thinking that it would give his face some character. Kurt is unquestionably a beautiful young man, but sometimes those small imperfections (like a small scar or an imperfectly healed broken nose) makes features more interesting and unique. And if he doesn't look quite so perfectly "pretty", he might be taken more seriously as a masculine figure. The scar would help change how people saw him upon first meeting him, that he's really stronger and tougher than his pretty face might first imply. Like a dueling scar on a handsome European prince.

The bad thing was that like so many scenes on Glee, the  bashing scene itself was sketchily portrayed.  I mean, how did Kurt so quickly know it was a gay bashing like it appeared.  It all happened in a flash, and I'm sorry when you see someone getting hurt, sometimes you just REACT, especially if you think someone's life is in danger.

I actually appreciated how it was staged and that Kurt didn't immediately know that he was interrupting a bashing. This makes it very real to me. The best action sequences that I've seen filmed are the ones where you gets bits and pieces of what's really happening because that's how it's like it real life. It didn't matter for Kurt that the person was being attacked for being gay. All that mattered to him was that someone was in danger and Kurt just couldn't do nothing.

I really wish that the attack happened a bit earlier in the episode (and that they had cut out some of the endless Samcedes scenes) so that we could get a real sense of Kurt and his friends in the immediate aftermath. The scene around his hospital bed was okay (up until the time that Blaine started croaking), but the emotional fallout was rushed. Especially when it comes to Rachel. She made one admission of feeling guilty for having fought with Kurt and then we went right to an apology (and while a traumatic event can help cut through disputes, I feel that Rachel was let off way too easily by Kurt after her behavior that repeatedly has been very thoughtless and dismissive towards him). I do agree that Kurt does seem somewhat cut off from the others, and that he wasn't seeking their comfort or approval. He didn't ask them to watch him perform - Rachel did (perhaps as a way of trying to make up for her past behavior). He's the most adult of them because he's not looking for their support or approval for his actions.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 4/12/2014, 11:30 am

Maybe it wasn't clear from my previous post, but I don't think so much that Burt was in the wrong here, but the writers. I understand Burt's mixed feelings and anger, although I still think he should have waited with the scolding till after at least greeting his son and giving him some time to kick off the effect of the painkillers and possible headache. Shouting at him like the moment he saw him after getting beaten up and waking up in hospital? Not cool.
Come on: Burt's a grown ass man who had to travel several hours before he got to the hospital: he should be able to control his feelings better for the sake of his son, both phisically as mentally.

But I know that this also can be explained by the shoddy writing, as there simply should have been more scenes between Burt and Kurt, and in this storyline in general. This conversation should have happened a few days later, maybe before the Monday potluck diner Burt apparently wasn't even invited to, even though he probably stayed at the loft till after Tuesday.  Rolling Eyes 

It was mostly the bad wording and pacing of that hospital scene, and the forced PSA feeling of it all, that deliverd imo a very muddled message, a message I don't think they even intended to give:
You should not run into a fight because that's bad..... unless you are a jock.
And I repeat: I seriously doubt they would have even mentioned how stupid it was if it hadn't been Kurt, but a jock character. 

Noone told Blaine how stupid he was for jumping right in front of that rock salt slushie after the glee club deliberately met with the Warblers in a dark parking lot for a fight, or Finn when he deliberately sought out Brody to beat him up. Sam was praised for seeking out a fight with Karofsky while Finn was shamed for not doing it, not only by his peers but by Burt as well.
And Burt himself aggressively pinned Karofsky against the wall in a high school's corridor. Puck threw Quinn's boyfriend in the dumpster after he treated her badly. For that matter: noone told Kurt how stupid he was for running after Karofsky into that locker room: a guy twice his size. Admitted: Kurt for a long time never told anyone about that, but that action was prompted by Blaine's "courage" texts at the time.
Heck: just last week Artie was lauded for using pepper spray(!) in a crowded subway train while confronting his former attacker.

And you know what the biggest difference is when you compare these violent encounters instigated by heroic/protective 'morals' to what Kurt did now, besides those other fights involving jock-like characters (besides te Artie one)?
That those characters, characters we are supposed to root for, the good guys, all started the fight themselves, instead of trying to end one like Kurt did. But somehow it's Kurt who deserved to be shouted at for how stupid he was.  Mad

I'm sick and tired of Kurt always needing to be the moral centre. Why is it always Kurt who has to be the better man and do the right, sensible thing (and when he's not he's called out on it) when the Neanderthals can do whatever they want and even get praised for it?

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/12/2014, 1:12 pm

I think sometimes some are too obsessed with finding faults and slights with everything Kurt related , under ever nook and cranny. I think Burt would have chewed out Finn for doing the same thing if he was hurt.

KUrt was portrayed as a man with real balls, so I find no fault in that.l
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 4/12/2014, 3:23 pm

Buenos wrote:I think sometimes some  are too obsessed with finding faults and slights with everything Kurt related , under ever nook and cranny.  I think  Burt would have chewed out Finn for doing the same thing if he was hurt.

KUrt was portrayed as a man with real balls, so I find no fault in that.l
Burt chewed out Finn for not protecting Kurt when he was about 16-17, so I seriously doubt that.

But then again, this is Glee and characters change their values and opinions every week, depending on the whim of the writers, including Burt: one week (and a whole season before it) completely against a teen wedding while driving and pushing his son to say yes to a proposal the next.


And I really am bothered by you calling someone's observation and  thoughts on a scene in an episode discussion thread as being "obsessed", when that someone happens to not agree with you.
It's denigrating and an attempt to shut down another poster's opinion, and I find this especially ironic coming from you.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  ColferInspired on 4/12/2014, 10:43 pm

Look, some didn't like the Kurt/Burt scene and some did.  neutre 

Kurt used to be really effeminate, he used his snark in fights, this time he was physical.

Kurt since being in New York is discovering his masculine side, which we will see more of in next weeks episode.

They left out the panties line in "I'm Still Here" and in a way I was not upset about it.

For me I did not have that many problems with the Kurt/Burt scene.

What Kurt did running in that alley was stupid and brave.

The Kurt/Burt scene should have been longer, as Kurt did not seem upset about what Burt was saying, he stayed calm.

The acting was perfect.

I don't think Burt really knows how strong his son really is.
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/13/2014, 10:48 am

I think there's more then enough irony to go around in these forums. coool 

Having different opinions and observations isn't shutting down someone's opinions, posters can still respond what they want last time I read.

I do think and continue to think that Kurt is not some eternal victim/slighted in every scenario on Glee. He emerged stronger then ever in BASh and I don't apologize in thinking that looking for slights in every scene with Kurt isn't helpful. However everyone can still post away what they want.
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Ranwing on 4/13/2014, 3:02 pm

While I still genuinely think that Kurt forgave Rachel way too quickly after their fight (especially since she had behaved so terribly and insulted him both to his face and behind his back in Frenemies and Trio, there was one thing that I really genuinely liked about how their apology scene played out. Kurt called her out directly on what she said to him, how she insisted that those who are dedicated to focusing on their education are childish in compared to her, and how she insulted his talent as a performer by implying that there he was afraid to leave school. He threw her words right back in her face and didn't let it go. Rachel really had to apologize for how she insulted him and I think that this is the first time that Rachel actually directly apologized for something she did or said

She is very, very fortunate in a lot of ways that I don't believe she really appreciates, not least of which is having a friend like Kurt who is willing to try to protect her from her own mistakes. If it weren't for his kindness, she would not be living her dream right now. He hasn't deserved even a fraction of the treatment he received from her the past few episodes and if Rachel wants to be considered an "adult", it means owning your own shit.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  ChrisColferFan1 on 4/13/2014, 4:19 pm

Ranwing wrote:While I still genuinely think that Kurt forgave Rachel way too quickly after their fight (especially since she had behaved so terribly and insulted him both to his face and behind his back in Frenemies and Trio, there was one thing that I really genuinely liked about how their apology scene played out. Kurt called her out directly on what she said to him, how she insisted that those who are dedicated to focusing on their education are childish in compared to her, and how she insulted his talent as a performer by implying that there he was afraid to leave school. He threw her words right back in her face and didn't let it go. Rachel really had to apologize for how she insulted him and I think that this is the first time that Rachel actually directly apologized for something she did or said

She is very, very fortunate in a lot of ways that I don't believe she really appreciates, not least of which is having a friend like Kurt who is willing to try to protect her from her own mistakes. If it weren't for his kindness, she would not be living her dream right now. He hasn't deserved even a fraction of the treatment he received from her the past few episodes and if Rachel wants to be considered an "adult", it means owning your own shit.


Great post. Some very good points.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/13/2014, 8:30 pm

Nobody has Rachel's back like Kurt.

He truly is his father's son, in my head canon without the unwavering support of Burt he wouldn't have the self confidence he has.

Say what you will about Burt, his motto to Kurt is "Fuck 'em, I have your back."
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Glorfindel on 4/14/2014, 12:47 pm

Buenos wrote:Having different opinions and observations isn't shutting down someone's opinions, posters can still respond what they want last time I read.

I do think and continue to think that Kurt is not some eternal victim/slighted in every scenario on Glee.  He emerged stronger then ever in BASh and I don't apologize in thinking that looking for slights  in every scene with Kurt isn't helpful.  However everyone can still post away what they want.
Except you did not just strictly respond to my opinion: you belittled that opinion and questioned my motivations/reasoning for it by throwing around condescending words like "obsessed", "finding faults and slights with everything Kurt related, under ever nook and cranny", and again in this post with "thinking that looking for slights in every scene with Kurt isn't helpful".
You also tried to put words in my mouth by implying that I think that Kurt is an eternal victim, when I never even said that.

What you did was disrespectful and completely unrelated to the discussion at hand. If this board prides itself for one thing it's that the posters here might disagree with one another's opinion but they always respect the other posters and their opinions, and that's why we need so little moderation here.
So even though I thought this wouldn't even be necessary on this board: if you pull something like this again I will report you.


So I have questions and doubts about a scene, and mostly only the wording and pacing in it, as I think it gave a different message than what they intended to do: big deal.
This is Glee: they mess things up all the time, and often the wording is at fault, not the initial intention nor the actors. Just because it was a Burt/Kurt scene this time (with Mike and Chris knocking it out of the park, as usual) doesn't make any awkward wording less bad or problematic.

And imo Burt differentiating between the footballplayer he was and Kurt being 'only' a kicker, combined with Burt saying that Kurt was not the Bruce Willis or Charles Bronson type, and the show even implying thrice that Burt himself would have done the same (by having him defend himself when Kurt asked him what he would have done that he played football, by Kurt saying that he now without a doubt is his father's son, and finally again by Burt saying that next time they would take them together).....I mean: if all that isn't a muddled message, saying one thing while implying another, if that isn't bad wording resulting in hinted at double standards, I don't know what is?

Burt was absolutely right about it being stupid to run into a fight like that, but
1) this was never a problem before on Glee (even Artie did it last week), and
2) Burt definitely would have done it himself, which, again, was hinted at thrice in this 1 scene!
That's why I'm glad that Kurt didn't back off when Burt scolded him, because Kurt knew Burt would have done the same, and I think Kurt was fed up with not being expected to do what the other guys get away with all the time just because he's not a jock like them, when it was his own fight he was fighting, and not some romanticized damsel in distress scenario which always excused the jocks from starting fights (like defending or fighting over the girls, and even like the guys defending Kurt from bullies).

Now my guess is that the intended message was that yes, Burt was right about it being stupid (although I still believe he should have waited till later to lecture his son about that), and that Burt was merely so angry because he was upset out of fear of losing Kurt too (as he already lost Finn, which wasn't mentioned either, btw), but that he realized during the conversation that he would have done the same and Kurt was just following his own example.
Kurt's part of the conversation was that he was sick and tired of running away and that this incident was the ultimate proof and determination that he would never do that again (although he has proven that numerous times before), no matter if that would put himself at risk or if it upsets his dad: he's decided to fight for the greater good. Which indeed is quite foolish when you think of the consequences this encounter could have had, but it's his fight and therefore his decision. Men have been killed for a lot less noble causes, and just because Kurt isn't the typical Die Hard type does not mean he can't decide he will fight if the occasion arises again. And by saying he's Burt's son he even calls his dad out on being exactly the same so he's not the one to talk here.
That would have been a very balanced conversation, leaving both men in their value and finding understanding in the other.

But because the Glee writers can't write for shit it was just lost in translation and execution, or a large part of it anyway.Now it almost came off as Burt being 100% right (also about the Kurt not being a jock remarks) and Kurt being a foolish, stubborn child.
It's like with the WSS plot: we know there was more to it than simply Blaine being better than Kurt, who was deemed not qualified enough not because of who he was but because of how the others perceived him, but it was badly worded and half-assed, especially when clearly identifying the judges as being effemiphobic, so it went kind of nowhere and the resolution was not satisfying, nor really addressed the issue that they unintentionally(?) raised.


What I believe is that Kurt is indeed often held to a different standard on Glee than the other guys, simply because he is the posterboy gay (whereas Blaine is only gay when he's with Kurt). And I wasn't the only one who picked up on that in this particular Burt/Kurt scene, as the Vulture recapper commented on it too (or is she also "obsessed with finding faults and cracks under every nook and cranny" and making Kurt the "eternal victim"?), and I've seen similar reactions (though few) elsewhere.
But the writers holding Kurt to a higher moral standard doesn't make him less strong, less brave, more of a victim or even Burt less right about it being stupid in general to run into an alley when there's a fight going on. On contrary: it even makes Kurt the Kurt we love so much more, because with all his empathy for the girls and facing troubles throughout his entire young life Kurt still is able to see the greater good and to not lower himself to (male) primal instincts all the time, just because that would make him more of a man in the eyes of others.

But it does get frustrating that when it comes to Kurt he on the one hand is often held by these higher moral standards it's almost inhuman (but it's how Kurt has been since season 1 and why he's such an inspirational character), and consequentially is called St. Gay of Lima for it by the fandom every time it's even hinted at.
While yet on the other hand, whenever he does snap and react with that stubborn bravery he's famous for, which often is a primal reaction and not a calculated one, he's being called out on it. And so far that was done primarily in the fandom (usually with calling Kurt a snarky bitch and/or him playing the victim card), but as of now it's also in canon in the show.
Again: I don't think it was intentional, although maybe subconscious, from the writers, but I wasn't the only one who picked up on it and I think it's worth discussing.

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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/14/2014, 2:35 pm

So even though I thought this wouldn't even be necessary on this board: if you pull something like this again I will report you.

Anyone can report anyone if they feel they need, and that is their opinion.  I do think that figuratively speaking , every nook and cranny is sometimes inspected to prove that Kurt is some victim, slighted again on Glee.

My own point has always been that that the bigger problem now is  Chris/Kurt needs more screen time and songs.  His actual portrayal the last 1 1/2 years is an improvement over the way he was portrayed (ironically with MORE screen time) in Season 3, ie  as being compared unfavorably with others, Blaine, Brittany, Rachel, the "bro" ND members, etc.    NO one has to agree with me, if others think I'm obsessed with my POV, so be it.  Quite frankly I don't care because I know what my opinions are.

But whatever, if you got your feelings hurt over a general statement I made (and No, I didn't quote anyone specifically but nice tactic) so report away.

On another note, I think Kurt finding his groove at NYADA makes a lot of sense, he has at least a year under his belt there and the one thing that has been shown consistently, if briefly, is Kurt in classes, be it method acting, practicing his dancing, or trying to join clubs, etc.  He is enrolled in NYADA, started a band , works in a diner so he's shown as fully engaged being in New York.  His new degree of self confidence is nice to see. While rushing in to intervene in the bashign wasn't smart, it just shows how much courage and balls Kurt Hummel has.
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Ranwing on 4/14/2014, 3:24 pm

I think that if there is one huge element of Kurt's story that has been underappreciate this season it's just how much he is defying and exceeding the expectations (and limits) that others had put on him. I think that this has been building since Swan Song last season, when Ms. Tibideaux thought that she had Kurt pegged (talented but all flash and no soul) and with the opportunity she granted him, he proved that she had been wrong in her assessment. Back in Lima he was seen as physically weak and girlish - now he's proving himself to be not just strong in will, but strong in body and masculine in the most profound manner possible. In Lima he was not seen as physically attractive and desirable by other men (and therefore needed to count himself as fortune to have "caught" Blaine). In New York, Kurt has attracted the attention of multiple men. There has been a very real and palpable shift in how Kurt is being perceived by others.

Kurt's talk with his father was interesting because a large part of it was resistance on Kurt's part to keep his father from trying to shove him back into that old familiar box. Burt loves Kurt, but even he was at times blinded by his own misconceptions about who his son is and what he's capable of. For Burt, Kurt was the one who needed to be protected and not the one who protected others (even though Kurt had been doing so since season one). Kurt was not physically strong. Kurt was not a physical fighter. And Kurt was making it very clear that he was not going to get shoved back into that box. That he wasn't weak or fragile and need defending by bigger and stronger men. He could not only stand up for himself, but also stand up and protect others.

I thought that it was refreshing to see Kurt in this light. We've been seeing this for some time now, but now those around him (Burt, Rachel, Blaine) are seeing Kurt with new eyes. Those who are closest to Kurt and think that they know him best are now finally really seeing Kurt for who he really is.



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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Buenos on 4/14/2014, 3:30 pm

Ranwing wrote:That he wasn't weak or fragile and need defending by bigger and stronger men. He could not only stand up for himself, but also stand up and protect others.  

I thought that it was refreshing to see Kurt in this light. We've been seeing this for some time now, but now those around him (Burt, Rachel, Blaine) are seeing Kurt with new eyes. Those who are closest to Kurt and think that they know him best are now finally really seeing Kurt for who he really is.

Yup, he's a man on the show, a MENSCH, the only one among the younger characters.  Compared to him, the rest of the NY characters are toddlers in diapers.

He's been that way since season one, but others are finally starting to notice it more.
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  ColferInspired on 4/16/2014, 7:04 am



chordover: @hrhchriscolfer badass
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Re: 5x15 "Bash" Watch & Discussion thread

Post  Jellyrolls on 4/17/2014, 7:49 pm

Total random. I was just rewatching parts of this episode, and in the scene where they are having their family dinner, and Kurt, Rachel, and Blaine tell everyone else about the Sondheim assignment for winter critique, Blaine says, "We have to do a duet" to Rachel. So it was his bright idea to ignore what the assignment was.

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